Cover up a problem or solve it? Lie or be honest?Should i change? 2

[Cutiee]

Hey all

Thanks you very much for answering my other questions, since I’m really inexperienced, here I got more questions…I will try to make this short and explain in details…

(my project)2 equipments I bought are missing some certificates because vendor made mistakes, but vendor insisted that they couldn’t supply the certs again, but they would supply 2 brand new equipments with all certs free of charge, so we accepted their offer.

At that stage only me, my manager and project manager knew about this situation. They didn’t tell me not to tell anyone about it, and I didn’t think it was a big deal even if I did tell anyone, because it’s simply the truth.

Anyway QA department was looking for those certs, they were asking me, so I told them what happened. Then they reminded me if the new certs don’t tie up with old equipments, equipments have to be replaced. And of course, taking the original equipments off and re-fit&test the new ones are going to incur extra cost. But if the new certs don’t have any numbers on it, of course we can just use them without replacing the equipments, that all sounds reasonable to me.

But after I told my manager about my conversation with QA department, he told me off. He said I was supposed to keep this quiet, I should have lied to QA, it’s only then I realised that his plan was to not replace the equipments even if the certs don’t tie up, just to save us money…

Is there an un-written rule or something? If we can cover up a problem, and save money for the company, we should not try to spend money solve the problem but cover it up, and keep everyone in the dark? And be dishonest?

...

Cuttie

 

[KENAT]

Sorry to answer with a question but...

Are there any safety or regulatory or contractural issues related to having or not having certs that can be explicitly tied to the original equipment delivered?

If your customer explicitly requires certs related to the equipment then you are potentially contravening your contract, which could lead to fraud.

If there are regulatory issues then you're potentially helping break the law.

If there are safety issues then there are moral/ethical issues and potentially legal ramifications.

If you're just cheating your own internal system, and that isn't related to ISO9001 assurance which is a customer requirement then it's just an internal issue. I suspect most of us have come into conflict with QA or similar at some point so you'll need to consider if they are just being pedantic or is your boss being shady.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[PeterKsiazek]

Part of my definition of being a professional is being upfront and honest in all dealings. That being said, I do agree with Kenat in that if it is an internal process than it might not be that big a deal, however, it's always best to be upfront at all times. Chances are there is a reason your QA department wants to see certifications.

One thing to think about, if your boss wanted you to lie to QA do you think if the crap hit the fan over the certifications not being there that he would take the flak, or just blame you? If I had a situation like this I would want some form of backup (written) to CMA.

 

[TheTick]

There may be correct times to withhold information with external vendors or customers. However, hiding such information within the organization is almost certainly never correct or healthy.

I've warned my bosses to not put me in a position of having to lie to customers. I am not good at it, anyhow.

 

[Cutiee]

they're calibration certs, required by the client

I agree with TheTick about "There may be correct times to withhold information with external vendors or customers", but my manager wanted to keep as many people (in the company) in the dark as possible, then no one will know those certs are not for the installed equipments when he gives them to QA,

I never had problems with QA, but i'm sure QA will check if the certs are for the right equipments, i think my manager is trying to be sneaky... and it's just silly, i think..

plus I never want to lie to my colleagues, especially it's work related...

Cuttie

 

[kelowna]

I think that by posting your question, you already answered it. Obviously you do not like the situation nor you think it honest.

I agree.

 

[SomptingGuy]

The term "QA department" is interesting. Most companies I've worked for or with have a few QA inspectors, who's job it is to the the paperwork into shape for the ISO guys. A whole department??

- Steve

 

[ScottyUK]

If you don't know why the client needs those certificates then they've got to match. You're in oil & gas aren't you? How will you feel if one of these things causes a problem out on a platform and there's an incident as a result? I have no idea if a problem with this thing could lead to that situation, but it would not be a comfortable thought.

FWIW, I think you've done the right thing. Is this the same place most of us advised you to leave a while ago?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[BJC]

"(my project)2 equipments I bought are missing some certificates because vendor made mistakes, but vendor insisted that they couldn't supply the certs again, but they would supply 2 brand new equipments with all certs free of charge, so we accepted their offer. "

Did you loose the certs or did they never make it to the site?
What does the purchase order/contract say?
Didyou specify certs in your purchase order documentation?
If you specified Certs and they nver made it to the site its like ordering 5,000 bolts and only getting 4,000? Certs are a deliverable, No certs, no money. I treat Certs like hardware, if there not in my hand it the same as not getting all the hardware I speciified. If the vendor made mistakes and can't supply Certs TS- you ordered and paid for them.
IF they have to build two more equipments to supply Certs TS-it's on their dime. If they suddenly come up with them be cautoud they may be forged.

 

[Cutiee]

Yes, QA has its own office, manager and staff…

Yes, that’s still the place; I tried to find another job, but no luck during recession…

Vendor lost certs, that’s why they’re offering 2 new equipments for free, and we’re not paying them yet.

Many things on one P.O, so on the P.O there was just a document pack, but those certs are generally required for those equipments and vendor knew about it

It’s not a big deal, but I just got annoyed today, because I was told off for being honest :s

x

Cuttie

 

[swivel63]

how different are the documents? what are the ramifications if the certs don't line up with the equipment?

 

[DRC1]

Something sounds odd that they could not give you certs so they replaced the equipment, and your boss didn't want you to tell anyone. (note for file, the later is allways a sign of trouble on the horizon).
The best way to handle it is to do what your boss told you, don't say anything. When QA asked what is going on, just say that they have to talk to your supervisor. Then let him know they asked. Then stay out of it.

 

[ctopher]

Being honest to other departments is fine. But, I would have told them to discuss the matter with my manager. Any question in your mind about an issue, refer others to your manager.

Chris
SolidWorks 08, CATIA V5
ctopher's home (updated Aug 5, 2008)
ctopher's blog
SolidWorks Legion

 

[PaulvdH]

Cuttie,

I think you did the right thing.
Now you will feel "sorry" to your manager. But guess who will be blamed when something goes wrong?? It won't be your manager, nor QA.. It will be your #ss on the line who gets kicked...
I would have done the same you did, good job!!

One advice from me: start looking for another job, I wouldn't want to work for a company/manager who has these type of ideas....

regards
Paul

----------------------------------------
Paul van der Heijden
Composite Engineer
Vekoma Rides Manufacturing BV
Internet:

http://www.vekoma.com

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[TenPenny]

Never lie.

In future, the right way to deal with an issue like this is to refer inquiries to your manager, because you 'are not certain you have all the relevant details' or something equally fudgy.

You need to understand what issues your manager wants to fudge the details on, though, so you can respond appropriately.

 

[bpattengale]

Cuttie,
I'm not sure where you're located of if you're a PE, but if you signed those plans and specs ultimately its you thats going to be held responsible for them. As engineers its our duty to protect the public wellfare followed by our client's interest. The client required certs and they were not supplied with the equipment, thus in the eyes of the client they did not get what they paid for.

If you or you manager is worried about the cost of replacing the equipment, back charge the cost to the vendor as they failed to supply what was specified.

I agree with everyone else that this whole thing smells rotten. If your manager is asking you to cover up missing certs whats next? Is he going to start asking you to fudge your calcs or something more serious?

As said before you should begin a search for a new job as soon as possible.

 

[cvg]

just because you didn't get certifications does not mean you got faulty equipment. In fact, most of the certs I see aren't worth much more than the paper they are printed on. However, they do allow perhaps some additional degree of liability to remain with the supplier. If you want to be sure your equipment works as advertised, then test it to prove it works. Ask the supplier to pay for the testing or to re-certify the equipment or to install the new pieces.

 

[cry22]

"Vendor lost certs"
Huuuuuuum, is that right?
You got hosed and then you bought some more bologny from the vendor.

 

[Debaser]

I've just read this posting and would be grateful if someone could check my understanding of the problem.

1) Supplier sends equipment to Cuttie's company but without certain certification required for its legal operation/authorisation.
2) Certification for that type of equipment is a necessity for whatever reason (QA, safety of operation, etc.) and is specific to each piece of euipment.
3) On notification, the supplier accepts blame for the missing certificates and offers to replace the equipment sent without certification with new like-for-like equipment with all appropriate certification and free of charge.
4) The suppliers offer of replacement equipment is accepted.
5) CUTTIE'S MANAGER WANTS TO KEEP THIS QUIET?

It seems that, based on this scenario, no-one at Cuttie's place of work, least of all Cuttie has done anything wrong. So why would his manager want to keep anything quiet? What am I missing?

 

[oneintheeye]

I dont get it either. It does seem maybe the manager has accepted the uncertified original equipment rather than have the hassle or replacing it. Therefore no cert. Am I right?