Cybertrucks and Bumpstocks and 3D printed guns 1

[truckandbus]

The press release for the Tesla cybertruck, where the claim is the body panels are impervious to a 9 mm round, got me questioning the role of the engineer in designing something because they can versus designing something because they should.

I'm not anti-gun by any means but I envision a psycho mowing down a bunch of people with a bump stock equipped printed gun and then taking off in their bulletproof Tesla.

I know a determined, disturbed person will find a way to hurt people but does it have to be so easy?

 

[TheTick]

Whatevs. Did you not see The Gauntlet (Clint Eastwood)? Any car can be made "bulletproof".

 

[RVAmeche]

Mythbusters re-created the trunk mounted, remote operated M60 machine gun rig shown in Breaking Bad and found that it basically worked like it did in the show.

You could buy a dump truck and get similar results pretty easily. Where there's a will, there's a way.


I do think we need to have an actual conversation about guns in our country, but I doubt it will ever make substantial change.

 

[truckandbus]

I know you can design bullet-proof cars, but should you is the ethical question?

Designing a bullet-proof car for the Pope or world leader seems reasonable, but producing one for the masses?

Designing a quality, highly accurate rifle seems reasonable, but designing a modification to alter the intended use?

Stepping away from guns, is designing a catalytic converter bypass ethical?

 

[dauwerda]

I get that your post is much more broad than just the example of the Tesla truck that you used to make your point...However, in the case of the Tesla truck it is my understanding that the body panels are the structural frame for the truck (no traditional frame) so the bulletproof thing is really just a byproduct of the actual use/requirement (structural strength) of the panels.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Any car can be made "bulletproof".

Yes, I recall the 'A-Team' doing it several times ;-)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[fel3]

Truckandbus....

I fail to see any ethical issues whatsoever in designing a bullet-proof vehicle for the masses. And, why should the Pope matter more than anyone else? Your imagined scenario, while certainly possible, is such a statistical outlier that it should not drive public policy or ethical considerations.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[dauwerda]

fel3, I completely agree with your sentiments. However, it's not that the Pope matters more than anyone else, its simply a probability thing...he is more likely to get shot at than less public figures.

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I can make something resistant to 9mm easily with a few layers of plywood. 9mm is not a high-penetration round which makes it great for self-defense (no over penetration), target shooting (low recoil), and general practice (lower cost ammo).

7.62x39 ammo in my SKS will penetrate small trees and steel brake rotors with ease. Never tried shooting anything significant with my 5.56 AR15 but those rounds are screaming and should penetrate most anything that's not hardened armor plate.

In short, this is a non-issue and if more cars could resist handgun fire the better since most gun violence deaths are from handguns. Rifles are an order of magnitude higher in terms of penetration (which is why mass shootings with them are often tragically higher in terms of loss of life as light cover is useless). You'll not easily make a vehicle truly bullet resistant and, even if you could, it wouldn't be something that wasn't instantly obvious what you're doing unless you had a LOT of money.

As an engineer we should focus and worry about the most critical problems; not something that's unrealistic and low-risk.

Ian Riley, PE, SE
Professional Engineer (ME, NH, VT, CT, MA, FL, CO) Structural Engineer (IL, HI)

 

[JStephen]

When I was younger, I spent some time shooting in my granddad's pasture. One of the items in that pasture was some old 50'-s model car that had been wrecked. I did discover that a 45 LC would go through both doors with no problem. So when you see people on TV hiding behind their cars, that's not as effective as you might think. (And 45 LC is another low-power round from the black-powder days).

In my opinion, if a body panel is impervious to 9mm fire, it's kind of stupid to publicize that, as somewhere, some nitwit will be taking potshots at one just because you said that.

Years ago, I toured a helicopter facility in Amarillo, and saw how they made those things out of that honeycomb aluminum. It looked to me like you could take a 22 LR and shoot from one end of a helicopter to the other. So not something I'd want to fly into battle with.

That reminds me, there's a whole Youtube channel on "Forgotten Weapons" that is very interesting. One of the items discussed is various anti-tank rifles. How those came about is that the original tanks were built to withstand rifle fire, and that's about it. So a 20 mm round in a portable gun could punch a hole right through a lot of the earlier tanks. But as WWII came along, all the tanks got built heavier and heavier and it wasn't long before the anti-tank rifles were pretty well useless.

 

[fel3]

dauwerda…

I certainly agree that the Pope is more likely a target that the average person (it hasn't been all that long since a Pope actually was a target). But, that does not justify claiming it's OK for the Pope to have a bullet-proof vehicle, but not the average person. The OP made a false distinction.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill

 

[CWB1]

I dont have a feel for small caliber handgun penetration, but do find the many internet claims that this truck is "bulletproof" to be pretty comical. The windows dont appear to be anything more than standard thin laminate, and 3mm isnt uncommon for commercial vehicle bodywork.

As to the ethics of designing potential assault vehicles for the masses, I worry more over designing them for the quasi-military civilian agencies.

 

[IRstuff]

3 mm seems much thicker than what I recall body panels were/are like. My Prius' body panels are less than 1 mm thick.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[CWB1]

Passenger cars are typically stamped from various high strength alloys of 19-26 gauge. Commercial vehicles, particularly “vocational” trucks - dumps, garbage haulers, off-highway tractors, etc have heavier bodywork bc they take a beating off-highway on construction sites and elsewhere, and have operators and techs climbing/standing on them in use and during maintenance. One of my favorite design quality checks is what I call the “300 lb technician test.” If it can be stepped on you assume it will be stepped on.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I did discover that a 45 LC would go through both doors with no problem. So when you see people on TV hiding behind their cars, that's not as effective as you might think.

The "smarter" shows have people hide behind the engine block or the wheels, not just door panels.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[FACS]

There are already dozens of manufacturers for bullet proof cars.
Guns are easy to get, you don't need to print one.
Bump stocks are not even required for mayhem, fully automatic rifles can easily be found.

Not sure what the dilemma is here. The engineering is complete.

 

[Rabbit12]

I'm not sure I'd say "fully automatic rifles can easily be found". I'm sure there are some on the black market but I'd sure have to work a bit to get one. Or learn gunsmithing and make one.

 

[drawoh]

My general thought about this is what we learn from the Titanic and the World Trade Center. You can do enough damage to anything, and it will fail. There were all sort of small anti-tank rifles developed prior to WWII ([link link=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XOnhPtqj3Jo]British Boys Anti-Tank Rifle[/url]) which worked fine until tanks got massively bigger. Thank you JStephen. There is a Walt Disney film about this thing, which must have come out just as they became obsolete.

Why does my pickup truck need to be bulletproof? If you need your pickup truck to be bulletproof, what stops me from buying a 120mm anti-tank gun?


--
JHG

 

[bridgebuster]

Along the same lines, there are plenty of rabid gun control politicians who have armed security details 24/7 but don't want the average citizen to have the ability to defend himself/herself.

 

[LionelHutz]

On most cars, the only doors worth hiding behind are ones equipped with ballistic panels.