Dealing With Professional Complaint 10

[MyCupboard]

In Short: I wrote a site observation report for a site in a state that i'm not licensed in (but my boss is), my boss approved the report, we sent it out to the builder, and the homeowner submitted a complaint that i was practicing engineering without a license. my boss's name and my name are both on the report under "prepared by", no one signed or sealed the report. Anyone have experience with this? Any insight is helpful.

In Long:
I've been a licensed PE in one state for a couple years. At the firm that I used to work at, we did a lot of site observation reports for builders. Essentially when a homeowner complained about quality of work or structural integrity, the builder would call us to check it out and recommend repair specifications or state why we believe things are okay. The firm had 3 engineers - the owner (licensed in many states), my direct boss (licensed in one or two states) and myself (licensed in one state). All of our reports would have "prepared by" with the person who wrote the report as well as the owner's name (who checked the report and approved it).

The company wrote a report in a state that the owner is licensed in, but I am not licensed in. I have seen engineers work on millions of projects in states that they are not licensed in, as long as the principal/boss was licensed and checking the work (and ultimately the one signing and sealing). At no point did I sign or seal any documents for this project (since i'm not licensed in the state). In fact, my boss also did not sign and seal the report (since it was not requested by the municipality, builder, etc.). On the report my boss consistently requested that we put our credentials at the end of our name for the comfort of the client (EIT when we were that, and PE when we passed our exam). So my name had PE at the end of it, since I am a PE. Again, no sign and seal or signature of any sort - just a line that said who wrote the report. Our company name and address was also on the report, which is located in the same state that i'm licensed in.

The homeowner submitted a formal complain to the state licensing board stating that I was practicing engineering without a license. I submitted my formal response as requested but I really thought this would be an open and shut case - which it is not. It has been over a month and the investigation is ongoing.

My question:
Does anyone know if this is normal? I have since left the company and am not working at a firm that writes reports anymore (or does work in states other than what i'm licensed in) - so i'm not worried about future instances. I would appreciate any insight.

 

[TigerGuy]

In the USA, we use the International Building Code (IBC). The IBC is updated every 3 years. Most municipalities and government agencies adopt the current IBC every 6 years, skipping every other update. You have to know which version is adopted by the agency reviewing your designs.

 

[dik]

Heaven forbid if something in the code is wrong... and there is more recent information available. Do you use the code, or the correct information?

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[phamENG]

We've strayed a bit from the original topic, but oh well...

To dik's point, I believe we have a responsibility to be aware of the most recent accepted engineering practice. That includes new consensus research and reference standards updates. We also have a responsibility to understand and know the legally required standards to which we must design buildings. In the US, that's dependent upon the building code adopted by law in the jurisdiction. If there is a conflict, we have to be able to determine the best course of action. If the change is simply to improve efficiency, follow the adopted code. If the change is for safety, follow the newest information (i.e., Southern Pine visually graded lumber design values in 2013).

TL;DR: look at the newest and look at adopted, use the more stringent criteria

 

[TigerGuy]

Back to the original topic, if somebody is not a licensed engineer and practices engineering, they can be fined. If somebody is a PE, and does something in another jurisdiction, even if not actual engineering, somebody can file a complaint and jeopardize the license, along with fines.

Hopefully, the state board is made up of rational individuals and will settle this quickly and reasonably.

 

[MyCupboard]

I will update everyone once I receive an outcome. It has been a month so far. No decision has been made by the board yet. Thanks for all your responses. Please use this as a reminder to explain this dilemma to the new engineers you come across.

 

[JAE]

Back to the original topic, if somebody is not a licensed engineer and practices engineering, they can be fined.

Not if they performed the engineering under a licensed PE in that state and the licensed PE signed/sealed the document.

If somebody is a PE, and does something in another jurisdiction, even if not actual engineering, somebody can file a complaint and jeopardize the license, along with fines.

If the services were defined as "engineering" by the local state board, and the PE wasn't licensed in that state then yes.
If the actions performed are NOT defined as "engineering" by the local state board, then no.
I'm not licensed in Oregon but if I mowed someone's lawn there I wouldn't have a problem.

 

[AZPete]

It has been a month so far. No decision has been made by the board yet.

Is the delay due to scheduling the first discussion, or is it that they are grappling with it?

If the latter, one could appeal to the Board with, "If this isn't a straightforward decision for the Board, perhaps holding a PE to potential penalty may be a stretch. Perhaps this allegation ought to be dismissed and the Board can use it as an opportunity to clarify the code."

May be overly bold, but if that's the essence of it, then it probably warrants it.

 

[TigerGuy]

JAE,

Fair points of clarification.

 

[MyCupboard]

AZPete - i have called multiple times trying to get any information and they just simply say that they have received my required response letter and no further information will be provided to me until a decision has been made. So i have no idea how far along they are in the process or if they have even considered it at all. I will keep you all posted once i hear anything or if they reach out for a conversation of any sorts.

 

[MyCupboard]

JAE - that's exactly my view of the situation. I am viewing what I did as a "technical staff" job. I took the time to drive out to site, took pictures and documented the conditions that i was instructed to document and brought back to my boss for him to look at and guide me through the document. The report (that again, was written under the direction of my boss, who is licensed in the state) didn't even have any engineering/repair recommendations - it just said these items may be of concern and should be analyzed by a PE licensed in your state. That's all the client (builder) hired us to do. come document and tell them which things they should look into with an engineer.

the closest comparison I have is if a home inspector came out telling you "this truss appears to be broken and an engineer should be consulted" and then disciplining the inspector because he's not a licensed engineer.

the board has a copy of the report so hopefully they actually read it and express some grace.

 

[AZPete]

Got the threads crossed. Sounded like another thread on a jurisdictional interpretation. Addressed this one earlier; latter comment free to be disregarded.

 

[Once20036]

I`m a little late to this party, but Maine sent an email a year or so ago specifically warning people against identifying themselves as a PE in their state.

"You can only use a credential in a state where it is granted. If you are an EIT in NH, you are not an EI in Maine unless you apply and the credential is granted..."
"Remember, failure to comply with credentialing laws can result in action against your license"

Texas has a similar policy:

https://pels.texas.gov/nm/pa10_responseletter.pdf

I don't agree with any of it, but under this logic, identifying yourself as a PE in the report, even if the work was done under the direct supervision of a PE in Maine could still result in action against your license.

 

[JAE]

Well, yes - using "PE" after your name (just PE and nothing else) on a generic marketing brochure, or on a letter to someone in the state in question, could be a violation if you aren't licensed in that state...like Texas.

However, I would argue that the following are NOT violations of most state's provisions:
1. Having PE after your name on your website.
2. Having "PE (Virginia, Texas, Ohio)" after your name, designating the states in which you are licensed.
3. Having PE after your name on your business card in your pocket while you walk through the state in question.
4. Handing your business card (or e-transferring your contact information) to someone in the state in question if you aren't licensed there - but telling them you are not licensed there.
5. Having a tatoo on your chest with the words "Professional Engineer par excellence" and showing it off in that state

 

[phamENG]

JAE - please tell me that you are familiar with #5 from personal experience.

 

[phamENG]

I got a warning from Maine once about providing a proposal since I wasn't licensed there yet.

Something of a chicken and the egg issue...I was approached by a client wanting me to do a design in Maine, but I didn't want to go through the hassle of getting licensed if I wasn't going to get the project. The guy who runs the office is great, though. When I explained it to him and told him the proposal was due that day, he stayed late to see that my application was processed in time so I'd be in their system before I officially provided a proposal.

Didn't get the job, but kudos to the Maine PE licensing office for going above and beyond that day.

 

[JAE]

phamENG - not tellin'

Also - a somewhat similar experience to yours: Some years ago, we were starting up a design/build project with a separate contractor. We were doing all the engineering (the contractor had their own architects) and we flew out to Las Vegas, Nevada, for the kickoff meeting. This was to be a large addition to the US Postal Service facility there near the airport.

We had the meeting and then walked around the building looking at how the addition was to be tied in, issues with the structure, etc. The structural "agent" for the USPS asked me who was going to be the EOR of the project and I said I was. He asked if I was a licensed engineer in the state of Nevada and I told him my application was pending.

Apparently not good enough for this guy so a few weeks later I get a call from the NV board asking who was going to be the EOR...I said I was...they said, well...you can't be as you aren't a licensed PE in the state of Nevada yet.

I answered, "That's true. I have a licensed application pending for NV but only out of general courtesy. You see, this project is federal. Federal funded, on federal property, and not technically "in" the state of Nevada. In other words, the state of Nevada had no jurisdiction.

Silence on the phone for a minute and then, "we'll have to review that and get back to you".

We finished the project and a month or so after we were complete, I get a letter from the board there telling me that they agreed that I hadn't violated any engineering provision and was good to go. Whew!!!