Deck ledger to wall detail. 1

[msquared48]

Anyone have a detail to share for a deck ledger attached to a wood stud wall where there is 4" brick veneer above and below the deck that must remain non bearing?

I developed a detail over the weekend, but it is complicated and was looking for something simpler.

I want the brick veneer vertical load (2.5 stories) to go direct to the foundation, not being supported vertically by the wood framing - only supported laterally.

I will post my detail later to discuss.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[XR250]

So you are saying the brick must start and stop at the deck band? Why not just attach the deck band thru the brick to the wood framing beyond?

 

[boo1]

Brick wall continuous from foundation, through bolts at the rim joist and brick veneer, with posts supporting the deck beams.

 

[msquared48]

Architect wants no posts at the wall...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[XR250]

3/8"ø lags thru 3/8"ø holes in the deck band and brick (assuming you have a dimensional lumber band) This gives nice bearing on the brick. Depends on the load of course. Not so good is there are lintels below that do not want the extra load.

 

[EngineeringEric]

Place a HSS tube directly to the sheathing extending beyond the F.O Brick (Brick + Wall Cavity - Plate). Or use (2) Angles.

The t&B Walls of the HSS are short cantilevers so you design them based on that... i then add plates to the ends as additional stiffness and direct load transfer.

Edit: I usually place these at a regular spacing and pocket the brick around them. it isn't a pretty detail but i have done it and it works quite well numerically and construction wise. I won't say i am a 100% fan but it is the best for a crumby situation

 

[EngineeringEric]

Here is one i did for a rafter, i recently did this but have used HSS for ledgers before... similar in concept (note this was a sketch not sealed at the time)

 

[RockEngineer]

Mike,
You know architects don't always get what they want. I'm waiting to see your detail. I work with a lot of professional deck builders and I've never seen a detail through brick veneer without posts next to the wall that I like.

 

[msquared48]

Nevermind. Flashing will control the design. Have to support the brick at every floor.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[Ron]

Mike....as it should be!

XR250....your concept is plausible; however, it will breach the waterproofing in the brick cavity. Not good on wood framing!

 

[XR250]

XR250....your concept is plausible; however, it will breach the waterproofing in the brick cavity. Not good on wood framing!

Happens all the time on brick structures. (not saying it is good practice) The code lets you use thru bolts in this case which is no different from a waterproofing standpoint.

 

[msquared48]

Here is the detail nevertheless, but it does have real flashing problems...

Not going to use it...

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[OldBldgGuy]

Small decks get fastened to brick all the time, rightly or wrongly. What I have done with larger or higher decks (max 2 stories above the fdn on a basement walk-out) is bolt a ledger through sleeves into the trimmer joist, and ensure that any lintels are designed for the load, the stud horizontal deflection is less than L/480, and the brick veneer is tied at max. 16" vertically & 24" horizontally. The sleeves, protruding 1/8" from the masonry & laid in the wall ahead of time, (1/2" conduit works nicely for 1/2" lags) ensures that tightening the lags doesn't compress the veneer in toward the framing. This makes sure that the lateral loading from the deck is carried by the wood framing and only the vertical load is on the brick. Caulking in the sleeve before the lag goes in deals with the small bit of water.

 

[medeek]

I would be interested to see what is the final solution to this problem.

A confused student is a good student.
Nathaniel P. Wilkerson, PE

http://www.medeek.com

 

[4thorns]

Mike. I came up with this last night.(I was half asleep so go easy on me) It's probably as complicated as your detail (if not more) but may have some possibilities. I am not a mason and can't tell you what size steel to fabricate it from but as a first attempt I think may have some merit.
After I finished it I thought that you may need spacers between the steel and the wood structure based on the space between the brick and the plywood. (not sure if that would be required) It could be added to the detail though. This is out of my realm but the idea popped into my head. Any thoughts?

Doug

 

[Teguci]

Here's my whacked idea. The thinking being that drilled holes are easier to seal than a 1/2" gap. Had fun with this but don't ever use it. Fails KISS by a long shot.

 

[dhengr]

Mike:
The IRC specifically says you can not apply concentrated loads, such as decks and deck ledgers, to a brick veneer on a prescriptively designed building; although they do allow stl. angle lintels over openings, which cause concentrated loads at the opening jambs. So, they do recognize that the veneer can take concentrated vert. loads. This is to keep the nail benders and DIY’ers from doing some really dumb things. There are many reasons for this, poor masonry workmanship and inspection, no real reqr’mt. for engineering involvement in the design of the entire bldg. or wall and veneer in particular, poor understanding of the way the loads are applied, and lack of adequate veneer tie back to a solid structure. As compared to the conservative and restrictive IRC prescriptive code, there are many things that can be refined and done when the bldg. design is engineered, and done to the IBC. Does the IBC actually say you can’t apply loads to a brick veneer, or is it kinda silent on the subject, and does it assume that we should use some good sound engineering judgement and experience if and when we do do this. I tend to agree with OldBldgGuy if and when it is done with care, and on a well constructed and supported brick veneer wall. Assuming there is a proper brick ledge, not just some treated 2x4 bolted to a conc. blk. wall, so that the brick is well supported vertically, there should be no question that the brick could likely handle a significant vertical deck loading. The brick veneer will also take significant loading in the plane of the wall; after all it is far stiffer in its plane than the 2x6 stud backup wall. What the brick veneer will not tolerate is lateral loads, any loads, which load the veneer perpendicular to the plane of the veneer. Thus, some kind of stand-off which bears down on the veneer should not be a problem. If it can flex a bit and apply some loading in the plane of the veneer, due to vert. or lateral loads from the deck, that should be o.k. too. But, lateral loading from the deck or from tightening the deck ledger to the bldg. floor diaphragm can not apply a loading to the veneer, perpendicular to the plane of the veneer. At the same time, this detail must allow that these lateral loads be taken through the veneer layer and be applied to the floor diaphragm in a meaningful way. And, this attachment feature must really take those loads in some substantial way into the floor diaphragm. You must do a good job of flashing and water proofing at these details. This condition is not unlike the lag screws on the deck ledger pulling the rim joist right out of the building for lack of proper attention to details.

This condition is tough to accommodate after the wall or house is built. But, on new construction, I would take a piece of pipe/tubing long enough to fit from the rim joist (or rigid sheathing) to about .25" beyond the outside face of the brick. I would weld 3/16th inch by 3x3 (4x4?) washer to the end of the pipe, and punch some holes for nails to the rim jst. and a threaded rod through the pipe. The same washers, but loose, get nailed over the bolt holes on the ledger once those are located. I would cut the pipe ends so that the pipes sloped down a few degrees to the outside, for drainage/weeping. I always set my lags or through bolts with this slope. I would have the mason place a 3/16th inch by 2x4 plate under the pipe, in a horiz. mortar joint for some improved bearing on the brick, but still some slip perpendicular to the brick plane. I would set the ledger and install the through bolts/treaded rod, and then flash over the ledger from a reglet in a horiz. brick joint just above. The lateral loads at the corners of decks, which tend to twist them off the building and the water barrier need some special attention. I think I could sleep just fine well with these details.

 

[msquared48]

The thing I do not like, being in a high seismic area, is that if the brick veneer goes down, which is a lot of the damage seen here as well as unreinforced masonry, then anything it supports goes down too. Saw this in the 01 Nisqually quake and in the '65 quake too.

Hence my dislike, regardless of any code allowance, of vertically bearing on brick veneer. It is still basically unreinforced masonry with a high aspect ratio, disregarding the ties.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[manstrom]

We do a lot of residential and wood framed structures. Our general rule is that you don't want to install a ledger on brick. I have seen details showing an attempted connection, but they make me cringe.

Solutions are:

-Pocket beams through brick and into the wall (like EngineeringEric shows). Use a concealed flange hanger in order to make waterproofing easier.

-Make the deck free standing and tie into the house for lateral load only.



When I am working on a problem, I never think about beauty but when I have finished, if the solution is not beautiful, I know it is wrong.

-R. Buckminster Fuller