Delegated Stair Design - Signed and Sealed?

[bookowski]

I'm guessing that this has been discussed on here but I can't find anything that addresses my question.

One portion of a project that I am currently working on involves providing a new stair opening in an existing building. The stair design itself was delegated to the contractors sub. This was all clear. However, the stair shop drawings have arrived and do not have a PE stamp. I rejected them and asked for a signed/sealed set of shops to review and it is now becoming an issue. The contractor and sub are saying that they will need extra money to hire a PE.

The most obvious answer in my mind is 'well who designed the stair if not a PE?'. I'm not working with the dream team though and I'd like to have some documentation of standard practice or code requirements to enforce this. Signed stair drawings are not required as part of the building dept. filing in this location, so as far as I know there is no requirement there. It seems like it should be clear that it's implied that the design would have to comply with all local codes and be performed by a PE... how is this usually covered? I don't have it explicitly stated on my drawings.

 

[MrHershey]

Our general notes includes a section for pre-engineered stairs. Specifically states 'provide calculations signed and sealed by a qualified structural (professional) engineering licensed in the state of XXX'

Hopefully you have something similar either in drawings or in specifications. If so, it's not your problem, contractor should have caught it. This is their cost to cover and should have bid accordingly.

 

[Ron]

bookowski....I do delegated structural design for a stair and rail fabricator. Most structural engineers of record will require signed and sealed shop drawings from the stair fabricator. Calculations are commonly required as well.

Stairs are life safety components of a building and are part of egress for life safety. As such, they are required to meet certain structural criteria. The only way that such criteria can be validated is through the signature and seal of a licensed professional engineer.

Stick to your guns and require it. As for the extra money, the fabricator knows that he must comply with the building code. Tell he has to prove his compliance. His "word" is not sufficient (as you well know). The stairs are structural components of the building and as such must be designed by a licensed professional engineer.

 

[MrHershey]

Probably would have been helpful if I had completely finished reading your post before typing that up....

Would be a good thing to throw in the general notes and specifications.

 

[bookowski]

Thanks for the replies. It's a small job and I don't have any specs, only drawing notes. It's actually a slightly more complicated situation, I have come on about 1/2 way through the project - it's already in construction (I'll omit the details as to why I was brought on board late). This means that I'm catching up and incorporating items under way and making some corrective measures at the same time in addition to the specifying the remainder of the work to be completed. I did put a note on my drawing that signed and sealed stair shops are required, as the contractor was reviewing my drawings he has brought up this issue that the stair guy is not providing a PE stamp. Their argument is that this wasn't on the 'original drawings' (which were not my documents).

I did some digging and found that it is actually a state law that is covered (this is NY state). The law reads "the delegatee shall be required to be licensed or otherwise legally authorized to perform the design work involved and shall be required to sign and certify any design prepared;". I think that should be sufficient to end the argument.

Digging for this made me read the related sections and has brought up another related question. The remainder of the section seems to imply that even though the delegatee signs/seals the stair drawings I am still ultimately responsible. For items such as steel connections this seems unreasonable. On a large project it would take a lot of time and a lot of fee for me to truly go through every calculation performed by the delegatee to verify it, which is what I should be doing if I am ultimately responsible. Has anyone had experience with this, what is implication of liability with delegated work? What degree of checking is required? In the past I usually request calcs and review them globally and some spot checks, never a line by line check of every calc.

 

[JStephen]

Usually, when we furnish design calculations, the project engineers indicate in some way that the calculations are for record purposes, and not "approved"- nobody wants to actually review and check them in detail for fear of somehow assuming the liability for them as well.

On your original question- some states have fairly clear-cut rules about how delegated engineering is supposed to work, some states don't. Even if you establish by state rule that this is delegated engineering and requires a PE, you may still have problems showing who is responsible for that PE.

 

[nutte]

Having a PE design the stairs, and accordingly sign and seal his work, is not necessarily the default. The requirement should be stated clearly, either in the drawings or in the specifications (where I usually see it). If it's not there, it sounds like the contractor has a valid point to call for an extra.

 

[Ron]

JS and Nutte are correct. Each state treats delegated engineering differently. In my state, it is relatively clear, but the steps are not usually followed correctly.

1. The SEOR is to provide design criteria and expected deliverables (shop drawings, calcs, etc.)
2. The SEOR can dictate whatever level of detail he wants (connection design, etc.)
3. The delegate engineer becomes the EOR for that portion of the work
4. The SEOR is obligated to review for intent with his design premise.

I rarely get instructions from the SEOR so I give them a somewhat "standard" package. Usually enough, but not always, depending on the SEOR. If they want more, I give it to them.

 

[dik]

Maybe it depends on your jurisdiction, but unless it is stipulated in the construction documents that shop drawings be sealed by an engineer, then it would likely be an Extra to Contract.

Dik

 

[Walterke]

It seems like it should be clear that it's implied that the design would...

The words in bold indicate that there might be an error in communication.
In general, with everything that has to do with engineering. I tend to avoid these words.

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[woodman88]

Steel stair designs are considered engineering under all (most?) of the States Boards of Engineering. As such they need to be sealed by an engineer in the state they are used in. The steel fabricators shop drawings need to be based on sealed engineering. Whether from the structure plans or another sealed source. I would ask for the sealed plans and calculations that the steel shops are based on. If they have no sealed drawings to base their shops from, then they should (might?) be in violation of the state engineering laws. Though it may be better to first ask the contractor if he wants to pay you to do the engineering or have the steel stair manufacturer do them.
On my plans I have always shown the required connection of the steel stairs to the structure. As I prefer a steel plate bent 2” minimum over the wood beam, I have had to red-line many steel stair shops flat plate connection to the structure.

"The remainder of the section seems to imply that even though the delegatee signs/seals the stair drawings I am still ultimately responsible."
Yes and No IMHO. Yes, you are responsible of checking that the submittal designs meets the requirement of your structure. No, you are not responsible for their design. However, in checking the submittal design and if there is a mistake that you should have noticed as an engineer as not meeting the code. Then you might be held partly responsible by the State Board of Engineering. The courts (i.e. lawyers), on the other hand, will reach into any deep pocket they can.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[connectegr]

We design and seal stair and handrail everyday. This requirement is typically noted on the drawings or specifications. If not required, the stair material and connections are usually not "designed". The detailer or fabricator makes selections based on efficiency and "experience". If not clearly required the contractor/fabricator have a good basis for an extra.

http://www.FerrellEngineering.com

Providing fabrication and erection efficient structural design of connections. Consulting services for structural welding and bolting.