Design Services Performed by a General Contractor

[gibson64]

Hello All,

I am a relatively new licensed civil engineer in NYS. On a personal note, I am buying land and am going to have a house built. I, shamefully, gave the GC I was planning on using a $3,000 deposit to prepare elevations and plan views of the house. He indicated that he used a retired engineer to review/sign/seal his plans and that I could do it if I felt comfortable. He also suggested that I become his new "reviewer/sealer" because his retired engineer was retiring from retirement. Now, I have been looking into the professional service laws in New York for other reasons as well (note my side engineering thread from November); and I have not heard from the builder in 3-months (he is completely ignoring me). So, based on my review of the laws, I have come to some conclusions that I must resolve for a) personal ethics as an engineer; b) Making the correct decision about personally performing design services on the side; and c) I want my money back. Let me know if you agree with my rationale:

1) As far as I can tell, the builder is committing a felony by rendering professional design services directly to the public without being a licensed engineer or architect?

2) Likewise, the engineer who is currently sealing the drawings is not performing services legally because in NYS (and I imagine in many others) engineering services must be performed directly from the engineer, to the client. No 3rd parties (i.e., the builder) allowed.

3) For me to perform engineering on the side (my employer is OK with it), I would have to work directly for the client who required the service. Note that for me, this issue has to do with my previous thread on drainage calcs for my friends dad (licensed surveyor); not for this builder.

4) If what they are doing is illegal, do I turn them in or turn my back?

I look forward to your opinions.

Happy New Year.

 

[JAE]

I don't think it is illegal for a contractor to secure the services of an engineer to design a project for a client of the builder...this is done via Design/Build all the time.

 

[JStephen]

I don't know about NY specifically, but a lot of states regulate corporate practice of engineering. In those states, it would be illegal for a GC to advertise engineering services and then sub it out (assuming the GC wasn't licensed), but wouldn't be illegal for the GC to actually contract for the work and sub it out.

The whole thing sounds somewhat questionable on ethical grounds- a lot like plan stamping.

 

[gibson64]

Thanks. In this case, the builder is actually the one doing the design which makes me question the legality. For it to be legal, the engineer; or someone in his company, has to do the design. These are some excerpts from their advertisement.

"Thank You for inquiring about Design Services offered by XXX.

A picture, a rough idea, or no idea at all, there's no need to worry and no need to spend a fortune on an architect to design your custom home! In fact, we offer FREE design services when you purchase your home from us.

A modest design deposit is applied to the purchase price of your home, saving you THOUSANDS in architects' fees. And, unlike other modular builders, we design your custom home "in-house", on a sophisticated CADD (Computer Assisted Design) system. This means that your home is created with a complete knowledge of modular construction and cost from the very beginning.

You work personally with a professional design expert each step of the way. You are able to review the plan in process, make changes to the design and even view a 3D rendition and "walk-through" of your home to be. No expensive design and architects' fees!"

 

[dik]

You might try contacting the contractor demanding your money back; you didn't mention if he prepared documents... hopefully he didn't. You can include information about him presenting himself as an engineering firm... Although I wouldn't, you may be obligated to reporting him as offering engineering services. I don't know if you had any documentation... Could be worse...

Just did up a report for an owner for a renovation. The owner provided a $60,000 deposit for a $130,000 reno... no drawings, no contract, in fact, no documentation... yup ... hiccups!

Dik

 

[gibson64]

Thanks for your input. He actually does have a "design contract" that I unfortunately signed. Although, as you say, could be worse. I think it is actually ironic that he has a "design contract" for him to provide design services (can't admit that you are providing such services more than that!). Luckily, I only gave him 3K so I am really not that worried about the money; moreso about him performing design services (of course it would be nice to have my money back).

 

[EddyC]

Gibson64,

I believe that in NY a design-build business entity must have an engineer as the prime "contractor". The GC would have to be the sub of the engineer instead of the other way around, as it appears to be in your case.

 

[JAE]

....and in NY - like in many states - it may be that single and dual family housing does not need engineering/architect licensing to design.

 

[RLM2000]

JAE is probably right, he doesn't need a license to design a residential structure. He probably does need an engineer as a subconsultant to review and stamp the drawings for IBC and local code compliance.

Here in Washington state there are countless numbers of contractors who provide the design service, and the engineer is not an employee of their company but a subconsultant to them. We consult many of these contractors. Find out how your local jurisdiction views the IRC and allows it's use in the area. This is the document that allows one and 2 family residences to be designed by anyone.

I don't know about the 3rd party stuff. Again look at design/build and value engineering scenarios. The engineer usually works for the contractor not the owner in all of those cases. It looks to me like you are getting bad service, and that is probably where your issue lies.

 

[Ashereng]

I am not sure if this point is of any significance.

They are offering "design" service, not "engineering" service. Design is not the same as engineering. My interior designer designs my room layout, lighting, colour etc. I then take that to my architect as input into the structural requirement of the house. Design, as far as I understand, is not regulated the same as engineering.

Maybe this is the confusion?

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[gibson64]

Thanks for all of your input. To close the loop I finally did get a hold of the NYS licensing board legal department. They indicated that in NYS a builder can in no way offer "design services" for a residential structure (nor can the engineer he hire's stamp them). These services must be completed by a NYS architect or engineer directly for the person who is receiving the service. I'm sure there can be manipulation of the language either way but hearing it from the horse's mouth is good enough for me. Also, the builders "sales pitch" is basically saying that they can replace an architect on a "CADD" machine and that they are "expert design professionals". It's interesting that different states have different views on this.