Did I Ruin My Career? 25

[dktoao]

So my story:

I graduated with a BSME about 4 years ago during the worst part of the slump into the "great resession". At this time I was offered a job with a small company who payed me $40k per year, which I took. At the time I didn't care about the pitiful salary because I wanted to gain experience and I was absolutely broke and didn't want to move back in with mom. I should have seen the salary as a warning sign because 2 years later I was making $46k, travelling 75% and not making anything in the way of compensation for the travel or overtime I was working. I decided to quit and I decided that I wanted to travel a bit before I started looking for work again because, you know, YOLO. I gave my boss a full 2 months of notice, when 2 months arrived my boss begged me to stay on just a bit longer, and I told him no. I don't think he took this very well and I couldn't have cared less at the time.

My intention was to just travel for a little while, 3 months around the U.S., 1.5 months in Asia and then back to work. Of course, after the 4.5 months I was the happiest I had ever been in my life and decided to do a working holiday in Australia for the next year. In Australia I worked for 5 months in a factory before finding a job in Oil and Gas doing data analysis and data entry. When my visa was about to expire this company really wanted to keep me on and offered me sponsorship to stay and work in Australia. I turned them down because they didn't offer me a wage that was on par with the median wage for an engineer with a few years of experience in Australia (which is around $80k by my reckoning) and I didn't want to stay that far away from my family.

So now the dilema, I have been back in the U.S. looking for work for about 3 months and I have had a lot of interviews but nothing has panned out yet. I think that my lack of success is mostly due to the fact that my resume now looks like swiss cheese with all kinds of different, unrelated experience on it. Usually the first question I get in an interview is usually something like "Why should we believe that you are ready to settle down and get serious about your career?" The second problem is that I don't have the best references, I have one glowing reference from the factory that I worked in and the other two are probably luke warm at best, likely not so good. I have provided secondary references to co-workers that I got along well with but I think these aren't nearly as good using my direct supervisor. The third problem is that I have been very picky in the jobs that I apply for because I don't want just another 6 month stint on my resume with a woeful tale to tell, I want a solid job with a solid company so I am not temped to next go do a working holiday in New Zealand to the further detriment of my engineering career.

Is telling a prospective employer all of this in a cover letter going to make me look like a whiny immature man-child? Should I lower my expectations and just find a job that is unsatisfying? I feel like I have really put myself in-between a rock and a hard place here. Any suggestions on what to do?

Anyone have any advice? What is the best course to get back on the engineering train?

Thanks in advance!

 

[JedClampett]

Back to the question:
You job history is like a credit rating. You can build it back up, but it takes time and good work habits. You start out as an unknown and day by day you create a reputation. Reliable, competent, knowledgeable, etc. are all attributes that make your bosses want to give you raises, responsibility and keep you around. Flaky, stupid, uncooperative are also attributes which make them want to show you the door. Your first boss was upset you left. That's a good sign.
Ease back on the attitude. There's a job out there you'll get.

 

[1gibson]

Well, I give up. You could take your Imac to the coffee shop and be a "writer." I think that is the best fit for how you've described yourself so far. If that doesn't work out, your Mom will still tell you that you can be anything you want to be when you grow up.

 

[stanweld]

dktoao
I took a similar sabatical in 1972 during a less severe recession - unless you worked in Aerospace in CA. It didn't affect my career. I did take the first Engineering position offered though. While I took a cut in pay as a result of my sabatical, it didn't last long. I had a number of other offers a few months after accepting the initial position. I wasn't interested in the other offers; I was having too much fun. Sometimes the first choice becomes the best even if it may not appear so.

 

[Fasteddie82]

Huh. This thread seemed to go in a negative direction, for no good reason. My 2 cents below, from a mid-30's engineer who's in a relatively stable job that he mostly enjoys, and also has some holes in the early part of his resume from various adventures (and mis-adventures).

So, you've been looking for work for three months, but haven't found a job. The economy sucks right now, its going to take awhile, no matter what is on your resume.

Also, it sounds like you're being picky based on geography (wanting to stay in your hometown), and picky based on quality (wanting a solid job with a solid company). Nothing wrong with either of those things, but realize its going to take that much longer to find a position.

I wouldn't ask about un-paid time off and telecommuting at an interview. I understand about wanting to feel out the company to get an idea of what the environment is like, but those kinds of questions put you in a bad light during the interview. Once you get the offer, that's the time to ask (and maybe even bargain for) things like un-paid time off and telecommuting.

Give us some more details about your degree, where you want to live, what kind of experince is on your resume, and we can probably provide more advice.

 

[dktoao]

Maybe I should explain my idea of picky, it is not massive salary + perks + time off + hot secretary. I simply want to work for a company that has interesting things to do (can't go too wrong with engineering in that aspect) and respect for their employees. If I start out at $30k a year because that is what I deserve for being a vagabond then that is fine, but I expect the salary to increase with my level of expertise, if the company is billing $500,000 per year off of my work then I want a reasonable fair market sized chunk, not a 2% salary increase. Also, I would prefer to work with people who I can relate to (don't we all) and this is part of my reasoning behind asking questions that make grumpy people squirm at interviews (although, this practice will be stopped once I hit a pre-determined level of low funds and just start answering the questions exactly the way they want to hear them). As for location, I live in Denver and would prefer to stay there, but there are other cities that I would happy with if it meant that I could have a higher job satisfaction. Possibly Seattle, Portland, San Fran, Austin, Boston and possibly Houston (definitely a city boy, grew up in the sticks, been there, done that).

That being said, I have a really good idea of what I would like to do. In college I was 7 classes away from getting a double major in ME and EE because I filled all my free electives with junior/senior level EE classes (in one case having to beg for a waiver on a pre-requisite), I thought about switching but... this is probably the dumbest thing any of you have ever heard but... My ex-gf of the same class was an EE student and I didn't want to be in all the same classes as her (I know, I know, I am the king of good life decisions). Anyway, I do enjoy ME still but I was thinking about switching my field to industrial automation as only about 80% of the job postings ask for an EE and a select few ask for either an ME or an EE. I have the computer programming chops to write semi-professional code as I do a good bit of hobby programming / micro-controller tinkering and at most jobs have become the guy that people go to when they have a problem that Excel can't quite solve to get some amateur computer software. Industrial automation seems to fit perfectly with my skill set but I know I am at a huge disadvantage to EE candidates because you can be sure that they have had exposure to the obscure Siemens and Rockwell software that I have never even glimpsed. Of course, the thought has crossed my mind to go back to school and polish off that EE in one or two semesters while living off of student loans, and it is quickly becoming a more and more appealing option. The other thing I have considered is going back for a CS degree, most of the people I know in this field are doing fantastic and getting raises left and right. I saw one of my friends switch careers after one night of sending out applications, and she wasn't even writing proper cover letters :O, another is still in school (he was originally a geo-physicist) and got a part time job in 2 weeks with a really reputable company (eschewing other offers to do so). Of course, we all know that field doesn't have a reputation for imploding from time to time. My original field of mechanical design and manufacturing isn't all that bad either given a good company to work for.

Anyone with experience in either industrial automation or comp sci have any advice or input? That would be something really valuable to me at the current moment. I have also given sales a passing glance, my social skills have improved quite a lot since when I originally graduated college (mostly due to my traveling stint) but I know nothing about the field. Should I bite the bullet and go back to school? Any advice on location? I am willing to move for a job in industrial automation, any suggestions on really cool cities to live that I have overlooked?

Again, thanks in advance!

 

[DRWeig]

Industrial automation is fun! Go for it.

I'll shoot down one of your aspirations, though. If a company is making $500,000 due to your work, you'll get the market rate for engineers with equivalent skills and no more. The first reason is that you can be replaced quickly with someone who isn't after a share of the pie, especially in this job market. The second reason is that the owners of the company take all the risk and need the return on their capital. At least that's what the one-percenters say to justify jillions of dollars of income, even if that return is hundreds of percent per year.

I'm sure there are companies that give rewards commensurate with the profit you generate, but I've never heard of any outside of Microsoft and Apple. Look at Yahoo. The new CEO cut out what the employees thought was a really important benefit - telecommuting. Why? She may have a good reason, but at this time she knows they can't quickly run away to another job.

I look forward to other eng-tippers posting exceptions to this thing. I'd truly like to know. I'd like to be able to adjust my attitude too.

I've found this situation to be especially hard-hitting when investors put heavy pressure on the company for growth instead of being happy with the bazillions of dollars of profit they make each year. They'll lay you off in a minute in order to hit the growth target by December 31 or to budget for growth in the coming year. It usually happens in October or November, to eke out a few more dollars before the year closes or the budget is submitted.

Consulting companies are probably the best in terms of appreciating the revenue you bring in, in my experience.

Best to you,

Goober Dave

Haven't see the forum policies? Do so now: Forum Policies

 

[Fasteddie82]

I simply want to work for a company that has interesting things to do (can't go too wrong with engineering in that aspect) and respect for their employees.

Nothing wrong with that.

If I start out at $30k a year because that is what I deserve for being a vagabond then that is fine, but I expect the salary to increase with my level of expertise, if the company is billing $500,000 per year off of my work then I want a reasonable fair market sized chunk, not a 2% salary increase.

There are exceptions to every rule. If you get in on the ground floor at some start-up that starts growing leaps and bounds (Google, Groupon, etc), then you can maybe expect out-sized salary increases. Usually though, if you start work with an established company, you are going to start out at market rate, and then expect to get a couple percent each year increase in salary, with a couple more percent if you get a promotion. The only way to make jumps of 10% or more seem to be to jump ship to another company.

So, point being, you want to make sure you do the initial salary negotiations right. Ideally, you figure out where you want to live, find a couple places you want to work for, get interviews and offers at a couple different places, and then make a choice. If you have a couple different offers, that gives you some leverage to ask for more money before you accept a job. Its a lousy situation to be in when there is only one company in your local area who employs people with your background, and you're trying to negotiate salary while you're unemployed (and they know you're unemployed). You end up starting out at the low end of market rate, and slowly come to realize that your peers are making more than you (ask me how I know).

You can use some resources on the net (salary dot com, indeed dot com, glassdoor dot com, etc) to find out what salaries are like. Generally, the key is to start as close to the high end of market rate as possible.

Also, after re-reading your first post, it sounds like you got two years of experience doing *something* fresh out of school, and then six months of factory experience, and six months doing data analysis in Oil and Gas. If you find a job where you can leverage this experience (ie a job that relates to your job fresh out of school, or a job that relates to oil and gas), then you can command a higher starting wage. If you go into a completely different field, then realize you may be treated more as a entry-level employee (and paid accordingly). Not that there is anything wrong with that, just things to think about.

Also, I would prefer to work with people who I can relate to (don't we all) and this is part of my reasoning behind asking questions that make grumpy people squirm at interviews (although, this practice will be stopped once I hit a pre-determined level of low funds and just start answering the questions exactly the way they want to hear them).

In general, don't make people squirm at interviews. I wouldn't want to hire someone who made me squirm. Again, maybe at some small start-up with a dynamic, go-getter culture they might appreciate this, but at an established company, no one will like this.

Interviewing is a game. Learn the rules, play the game, get the job.

Also, I'm no interviewing expert, but here's what I've taken away from several engineering interviewing experiences over the years.

In general, when you're called in to interview for an engineering job, you've already made it past ~70% of the hurdles (give or take). If you're getting called in for a no-kidding interview, that means that the HR weenies thought you'd be a fit, someone in engineering thought you'd be a fit, and now they want to see you in person. They're bringing you in to make sure you didn't completely fabricate your resume, and that you are the kind of person that they wouldn't mind seeing around the office everyday. When you're on the interview, be polite, be professional. Once they decide they like you and give you an offer, that's the time to start asking about un-paid time off and the like.

Its understandable that you want to feel out the culture while you're there also. I wouldn't even worry about that. Keep your eyes open while the HR person is walking you through the halls, and you'll figure out what you need to know about the company culture. After you go on a couple interviews you'll figure out what I mean. As an example, at one place I interviewed, the interview process was complete chaos. It was supposed to be a round-robin kind of thing, with the interviewer walking me around to various department heads for 20 minute interviews. The HR guy got lost while leading me around. Some of the department heads had no idea they were interviewing that day. Most of the department heads seemed to have this strange mix of ignorance and arrogance in their questioning. I worked there for a bit, and the interview process was a bellwether for the general work-a-day culture of the company. The place was always in chaos, management was arrogant and ignorant, and it was generally a lousy place to be.

Contrast that to another place, where the interview process was well planned, everyone I talked to was pleasant and congenial. It definitely seemed to be a nice place to work.

Point being, you can learn a lot about the culture of a place, just by keeping your eyes open during the interview.

As I said before, also look at places like glassdoor dot com, and the other sites. There are a lot of reviews on various companies out there, but the people who work there. Gives a great insight into what the current culture is. People also post information on what the interview experiences was like, which is also a great way to prepare pre-interview. Those sites also have job-search functions (indeed dot com is my favorite), and they seem to be better than Monster and Careerbuilder. Dice dot com is another one that's pretty good.

As for location, I live in Denver and would prefer to stay there, but there are other cities that I would happy with if it meant that I could have a higher job satisfaction. Possibly Seattle, Portland, San Fran, Austin, Boston and possibly Houston (definitely a city boy, grew up in the sticks, been there, done that).

Denver is nice, all of the other cities on the list seem OK too. Heard a lot of good things about Austin. San Fran seemed too dang cold and expensive. I know a couple folks in Boston, but I never understood the attraction. I feel like people moved there because they watched too many Martin Scorsese gangster movies (The Departed, etc). I feel like Salt Lake City is sometimes overlooked. Great skiing in the winter, hiking and mountain biking in the summer.

Recipe for a good working life:

- Figure out what you want to do, and what will keep you engaged while working.

Seems like you're well on your way to figuring this out. I'm no expert, but it seems like Industrial Automation would be good.

- Find a fun area to live in that has lots of options on places to work in your field.

No matter how engaging the job, living in the middle of no where sucks when you're young and single. Find a large metropolis that has good employment opportunities in your field. I'm in a large Midwestern city which I like, however my employer is the only one in its field here. That means that you have a tough time jumping ship to go elsewhere unless you move out of state. Makes it tough if you want to make a change of pace without changing your zip code. HR and management know it tough for people to leave, so they don't treat folks as well as if everyone had the ability to move to another company down the street.

Also make sure that large metropolis has opportunities to do the things you like to do. Don't move to St. Louis if you're a ski bum. Don't move to Denver if you're into BBQ and Cardinals games.

Somewhat related--I've met several folks over the years who are able to work from anywhere they have a high-speed internet connections. These people are typically doing something in the software realm. Its hard not to be jealous of someone who's chosen career allows him the flexibility and the money to live in someplace like Breckenridge CO for the entire ski season.

The other thing I have considered is going back for a CS degree, most of the people I know in this field are doing fantastic and getting raises left and right. I saw one of my friends switch careers after one night of sending out applications, and she wasn't even writing proper cover letters :O, another is still in school (he was originally a geo-physicist) and got a part time job in 2 weeks with a really reputable company (eschewing other offers to do so). Of course, we all know that field doesn't have a reputation for imploding from time to time.

The world never seems to have enough decent software people. I'm not a software guy. All the software people I know seem to be in high demand. I wish I knew more about coding. You can never go wrong keeping your coding skills sharp. Again, I'm jealous of the folks who can live in ski-country all season long, while getting paid to do it.

I have also given sales a passing glance, my social skills have improved quite a lot since when I originally graduated college (mostly due to my traveling stint) but I know nothing about the field.

When I look on the job boards from time to time, there always seems to be sales positions available. Which tells me it has a high turnover. Also, all of the decent sales jobs seem to require 3-5 years of sales experience. The entry-level sales jobs never sound too enticing. Sales seems like it might be interesting to get into, but just make sure you understand what you're signing yourself up for.

In college I was 7 classes away from getting a double major in ME and EE because I filled all my free electives with junior/senior level EE classes

Should I bite the bullet and go back to school?

If you're no-kidding within a semester or two of another degree, I'd say to go for it. BS in EE is a lot more marketable than "I have taken a lot of EE classes." I've run into a significant number of people who "almost" have another BS, or "almost" have a MS, or "almost" have a PhD. Some of them are likely full of it, but I've met a significant number who were close, but didn't get the degree for whatever reason. If you can knock it out now and want to do it, I'd say go for it. Chances are once you start working, its going to be immensely tough to go back.

Make sure you're realistic about knocking it out in a year, though. Seven classes, depending on what they are, can be challenging to do in a year.

Once you've figured out where you want to go, and what you want to do, some thoughts on the job hunt itself.

- Make sure you are leveraging your network. Your school probably has job search resources for alumni. You can also connect with classmates and former co-workers via Linkedin. Once you figure out where you want to go, and what you want to do, it's much easier to get the interview if you already know someone on the inside, especially in the current job environment.

- All of the sites I mentioned are good resources for searching for a job. I'm a fan of Indeed dot com, but there are others out there. There is a lot of very specific information on jobs, interviews, salaries etc at various companies. Forewarned is forearmed.

- Once you figure out where you want to go, and what you want to do, and who you want to work for, having a contact on the inside of a company is ideal. If you don't know anyone on the inside though, the next best thing is a job fair. If you show up at a companies booth with resume in hand, and can articulate how you are a good fit for a specific position they have advertised, that can be 90% of the battle. Targetedjobfairs dot com is a good resource for upcoming fairs, but a quick google search will find you a lot more.

 

[IRstuff]

Maybe I should explain my idea of picky, it is not massive salary + perks + time off + hot secretary. I simply want to work for a company that has interesting things to do (can't go too wrong with engineering in that aspect) and [highlight #3465A4]respect for their employees[/highlight].

>> Nice if you can get it, but if you're holding your breath on this one, fawgedabowit; it ain't going to happen. Even if you thought you found a set of management that did that during the interview, there's zero guarantee that they don't get booted or leave the following week. If you are thinking about your self-interests at your level, they're thinking about their self-interests at their level, and seldomly do they ever overlap.

If I start out at $30k a year because that is what I deserve for being a vagabond then that is fine, but I expect the salary to increase with my level of expertise, if the company is billing $500,000 per year off of my work then I want a reasonable fair market sized chunk, not a 2% salary increase.

>> Nice if you can get it, but if you're holding your breath on this one, fawgedabowit; it ain't going to happen. As with drugs, the profits on one successful drug pays for ALL the failures and losses on the other drugs. This is also part of "Their" self-interests and how they manage the bleeding.

The other thing I have considered is going back for a CS degree, most of the people I know in this field are doing fantastic and getting raises left and right. I saw one of my friends switch careers after one night of sending out applications, and she wasn't even writing proper cover letters :O, another is still in school (he was originally a geo-physicist) and got a part time job in 2 weeks with a really reputable company (eschewing other offers to do so). Of course, we all know that field doesn't have a reputation for imploding from time to time. My original field of mechanical design and manufacturing isn't all that bad either given a good company to work for.

Anyone with experience in either industrial automation or comp sci have any advice or input?

>> Nice if you can get it, but don't hold your breath on this one either. Just because someone gets money doesn't mean that you will. You are competing against everyone that's been reading the Yahoo news articles that CS is the way to go, in addition to those that can crank functional code over the course of a 24-hr hackathon. "Raises left and right" occurs only in certain phases of a company's development; there is a high likelihood that 90% of those companies will fail within 3 yrs. Even the once and future, high and mighty, Electronic Arts is looking toward a serious fall from grace.

That would be something really valuable to me at the current moment. I have also given sales a passing glance, my social skills have improved quite a lot since when I originally graduated college (mostly due to my traveling stint) but I know nothing about the field. Should I bite the bullet and go back to school?

>> Your "Squirrel!!" POV suggests that you may not be suited for slogging out a 40+ yr career in any one thing. Finishing your EE degree made halfway sense, but this stuff is just bouncing off the walls.



TTFN
faq731-376

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[FastMouse]

Hi again dktoao,

Most of what you have written here seems well-reasoned to me, but that's just me. I think that if you have wrapped a good story around it for your interviews, eventually you should have some success. But stay flexible if possible. One of the things with engineering is that there is enough work for everyone who is prepared to travel to where the work is and accept the downsides that sometimes accompany doing so.

Were I your interviewer, I would see areas to be probed in your CV, but not necessarily any showstoppers. I gave you my two cents above, and I hope that you do not mind if I give you a further two cents. I guess the disclaimer is that my opinions work for me, mostly, but other people have different approaches that work for them. There are no absolutes.

You are not being interviewed by "grumpy old men". You are being interviewed by people like you. Sure, you get some people who are not in touch with their emotions and do not have the empathy that is (or at least should be) associated with being a good human, and there are enough of these people around that you're going to meet them. Sometimes they use interviews to feel good about themselves by taking clipshots at the interviewee. That's life and you know it already. Don't work for them. However, an interviewee deliberately asking awkward questions in order to watch people squirm is the same as an arrogant interviewer taking clipshots. I am always happy to discuss corporate culture or the reality of the office routines, but if an interviewee deliberately asked awkward questions or tried to tease inconsistencies out of my freely-offered information, well, that would scream "JERK!" and it would signal to me that the application process has ended. Most interviewers are decent enough people and the fact that the person sitting across the table from you is trusted enough by their company to conduct the interview is a datapoint in their favour and it should be respected.

Do not give parting shots, even on line. Engineering is a surprisingly small world given the large number of people inhabiting it, and it is so easy to burn your bridges with a few hasty, ill-considered words, whether spoken or typed. After a few years, a successful engineer will start meeting those that they thought they would never encounter again and people that turn out to be online peers. It's not BS that your online interactions can affect your real-world interactions when this happens. You have willingly given enough information about yourself in this thread, without even being asked, that your potential interviewers would probably recognise your CV if they happen to have read these posts. Unlike a bad credit rating, personal slights cannot be erased. The exuberance of youth means that many people early in their career do not believe this, or do not care. I strongly recommend that you avoid this making this error or you will subsequently observe that the people you kick on your way up will kick you twice as hard on your way down, even if it is a decade or two later.

Your posts indicate intelligence and logic, and I suspect that you recognise these traits in yourself. The ability to write well and clearly elucidate a complex, reasoned argument ranks you in, say, the top 15% of society. But engineering is not society, that for us, this ability is nothing more than part of the baseline. It is one of the qualifiers for the profession, but it is not the decider that results in a desk at an employer. The decider is usually a "Does his/her face fit here?" judgement.

Good luck.

FastMouse

 

[spongebob007]

"Should I lower my expectations and just find a job that is unsatisfying?"

Maybe. Your goal here is to get back into engineering and not find your dream job. You have plenty of time to find your dream job while you are already gainfully employed. In fact, I might even suggest that if you are having trouble finding an engineering job you might even consider something like drafting or engineering technician as a way back into engineering. Also, if you like travel and different experiences, field service engineering might be something you should look into. I had a buddy who did this right out of school and he basically got paid to travel the world (he met his smoking hot wife while he was working in Brazil). Also, since the company was paying his living expenses, most of his paycheck went straight to the bank.

Don't let some of the old fart responses here get you down (FWIW I am "slightly" over 40 so I guess that makes me an old fart) As a Principal Engineer in my department I interview potential candidates. If someone has 3 or 4 one year jobs on their resume early in their career I don't even give it a second thought. Now if someone has a 20 year history of changing jobs every year, then I would label them a job hopper. I remember what it was like to be young and trying to find myself. In fact I encourage young engineers to work a couple of different jobs early on in order to figure out what they really want to do. Look, the days of getting a job right out of school and retiring from there 45 years later have gone the way of the dinosaur. I also wish I had taken a year or two off after school to see the world and find myself. Once you get all the trappings of middle class life, it is virtually impossible to do it, so good for you.


As far as interviewing goes, the right question asked to the wrong person can be seen as inappropriate. Most of my job interview experiences in the last 8 years or so have involved meeting with some of my prospective peers. These are the people that I ask the questions about the company culture. With the management and HR types I keep it strictly business. Even when questioning the worker bees, I try not to be so brunt about it. Rather than asking how many hours a week you work, I say: "Tell me a bit about your typical work week here"

 

[77JQX]

dktoao - Mybe you're not being picky enough. Have you identified the job you do want? It sounds as though you're pretty wide open about cities, and haven't been specific about industries you're considering. How about finding out which the good companies to work for are? What positions they have available, and what they look for when they hire? Get to know the people who would be your colleagues through professional organizations? Who does the hiring (not HR, but who your supervisor would be), and what they want in an applicant? Make contact and let them know you're serious about working for them, long before they have an opening. Target the job you want, not just any job.

 

[dktoao]

A big thanks to Fasteddie82, FastMouse, IRstuff and spongebob007 for those responses. Also, an apology to TheTick, I realize that I should not have made the remark that I did, I was just slightly perturbed some of the more negative responses and acted out. FastMouse, I especially appreciate your insight about the nature of interviewers and how respect given should be respect returned, I probably have been coming off as an arse at some of my interviews, and I am sure some of the information that I am after can be gained in better ways i.e. Glassdoor. I think my all of my disconnection to the real world over the past year and a half has regressed my personality a few years in age, and I probably have been acting childish (especially since I could get away with it in Australia due to the super strong economy). Still, I don't regret it, today I am a much wiser immature young man than I was 4 years ago (If that makes any sense). I think my course of action is to keep at it and if I don't find a satisfactory job by the time Fall semester rolls around I will complete my EE and possibly a masters since I have a much clearer head on where I want to go in life.

Is it polite to change subjects within the thread? I think I have gotten all I need from this thread because of the wonderful responses and I would kind of like to take it in a philosophical direction, (avert your eyes if you have an aversion for the dramatic, what I am about to write is quite so, I just finished watching a bunch of TED talks) cued by Fasteddie82's comment:

Interviewing is a game. Learn the rules, play the game, get the job.

It seems to me that this is the acceptable cultural norm, when you go to an interview you are an actor looking for your part and how far most people stretch the truth is usually the exact amount they can get away with it without being found out or contradicted by one of their references. Looking at most job postings I can see why. Recently I attempted to apply for a job at a certain large areospace company for a test engineer position that involved the kind of things that I like (electro-mechanical systems) and for which I was quite qualified (entry level position, basically a carbon copy of my first job's duties). The minimum requirements for this job where:

BSME -- check
Aerospace manufacturing experience -- check
Experience with high gain antennas -- check, check, check
Vibration laboratory experience -- check
Experience writing test procedures and reports -- check
Experience with high precision measurement devices such as laser measurement systems -- well, not quite.

Anyway, I have used high precision accelerometers but I figured to be honest I should check "no" because I don't know the first thing about laser measurement systems and if granted an interview I could simply explain applicable experience I had. I was instantly locked out of the job posting by their computer system and told that because I didn't meet the basic qualifications I could not finish the application; now or ever.

The point of the story is that I think most job ads are structured to encourage people to lie. If a job ad calls for 3 years of experience in field Foo, then logically it is put there to get people who have done Foo before and can start with minimal training. However, I perceive there being many classes of people without Foo field experience that can still do Foo: hobbyists, particularly talented students, people with lesser experience who have friends who can mentor them in Foo, really bright people with experience in Bar (a somewhat related field to Foo). In reality, either you have qualified people who are discouraged by the amount of deception required to fit their skills into the skill check boxes or people, qualified or not, outright lying. Is this really a good way to start a relationship? It seems to me that a more effective approach would be to list the responsibilities, skills and technologies required and then encourage all comers to prove they can do it better than the rest and really want to do it. I know there are 200 applicants for every job (for major companies there are probably more, so maybe the cookie cutter approach is more necessary) but reading 200 cover letters and resumes is much less work than it sounds like. Having been in a position where I helped comb through job applications before (small companies don't have HR departments) i know that 95% of applications can be thrown out within 20 seconds, and the remaining 5% can usually be ranked with about 5 minutes per application. So worst case, the time taken to review job applications assuming 2 people doing the same task and comparing results is 190*20 + 10*3000 seconds (~10 hours). Considering employee efficiency lets say 2 days per person. My lack of business experience doesn't tell me if this is an unacceptable cost but it seems like hiring the wrong employee or not being able to hire a qualified person (or even hiring an arsehole like me who no one can get along with ) would cost even more.

In engineering I would be shocked if a perfect candidate that required no training or time to familiarize themselves with anything have been found since the beginning of engineering as a profession. So,why do we encourage the fabrication of stories and half-truths in the application process? Why don't we just be honest, a good amount of training is required for any person hired. But I also think that the cost of said training is over-blown (if done right, I think training by work experience is a farce destined to cause thousands of dollars worth of mistakes by stressed out new hires {guess how I know? haha}). Also, the outside perspective brought on by a new person could just bring in ideas that will pay for their training twice over, companies get in bad habits out of ignorance that there is a vastly better way to do something all the time in our age of rapidly advancing technology.

Anyway, thoughts? Why is engineering employment "a game to be played" rather than the profession of making awesome stuff? Isn't that the reason we all got into it? In advance, I do realize a lot of the real-world pitfalls associated with everything I said but I really just want to demonstrate the need for a change of perspective among engineers and other professionals. It is obvious with the way the economy is these days something needs to change, and I think that better working cultures that encourage more honest behavior and more good-will in general are a piece of the puzzle.

Thoughts? Am I un-employable and a dreamer? What is better, a honest simpleton or a dis-honest "expert" in the field?

 

[JedClampett]

Well there's honest and there's too honest.
Case 1) Honest
You: You gave me too much change.
They: No I didn't.
You: take a look, there's too much here.
They: Move along, you're holding up the line.

Case 2) Too Honest
You: You gave me too much change.
They: No I didn't.
You: take a look, there's too much here.
They: Move along, you're holding up the line.
You: I'm going to your manager and getting you fired.

You don't have to be so honest such that it costs you a chance to get an interview (or in this case, finish the application). If you have some experience with that field, answer yes, even if it's kind of close. ALL THE OTHER APPLICANTS DID!!!

 

[IRstuff]

"when you go to an interview you are an actor looking for your part and how far most people stretch the truth is usually the exact amount they can get away with it without being found out or contradicted by one of their references."

Up to a point; you are MARKETING a product, which is you.

However, being caught in a fib is embarrassing and likely to blow an otherwise perfect fit. There will always be SOMEONE who's near and dear subject matter is the one thing you lied about. I've seen that on interviewees' resumes; "Oh, I see you have experience in XYZ; tell me about some of things you done with it." "Er, er, I actually only ever watched someone use XYZ; that's what I meant by "familiarity with XYZ.""

Requirements on postings are more often than not, used as a simple means of rejecting someone, "Oh, I don't think Joe Schmoe will fit; Oh, luckily, he has no experience in XYZ." If you make a positive impression, they will forgive a small lacking, "Oh, Joe Schmoe would be a perfect fit, except he's not familiar with XYZ; but, we can get Jack Smack to get him up to speed on that."

TTFN
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[dixonm13]

dktoao,

I have had very similar struggles looking for engineering positions in the Denver area as well.

I got my BSME from a smaller engineering program in Illinois, and spent my entire senior year applying for any opening in Colorado I could find. Having to luck by graduation I decided that the fact I was an out of state applicant may be putting me at a disadvantage. But I wanted to get out to CO so bad, about three months after graduation I packed my car with what it would hold and hit I-80 headed west! I slept on a friends couch for three months, and worked at a restaurant for almost a year. Every day I would apply to any position I thought would get me my start as an engineer, and I had probably 10-12 interviews before I got my first job offer. Throughout the course of the year it took to get that offer I asked myself countless times if I had made the right decision, and if anyone would ever recognize my degree (from a smaller school) enough to give me a shot.

I ended up accepting the offer because at that point I would have taken just about anything, and the situation reminds me much of what you described your first job as. It was a small company (100 employees), low pay ($41k annually), long hours (50-60hrs per week), and far more travel then I ever committed to (almost 50%). To say I was disappointed would be an understatement. I was hired on as an Application Engineer, and within 2 months the Project Manager that I worked besides walked out with no notice. Rather than hire a replacement, I was given the PM responsibilities on top of my AE tasks. Five months later my boss (VP of the company) was dismissed, and I was then asked to take on the title of "Product Manager" which essentially meant I then had to perform Sales/Marketing, Applications, Project Management, QC/Test, and Field Work for all of the products we shipped.

I ended up staying in that position for almost 2 years. There were many times I dreaded getting up in the morning, but I stuck it out as long as I could, all the while keeping an eye on the job boards and sending resumes out for the positions I really wanted. At the first of this year I was offered a position with a much larger, more stable company in the Denver area. I get all of the benefits I was missing out on before like 401k matching, and a pension plan. I have 13 paid days off per year, three weeks vacation, and a salary in the $60k range that I feel is at least competitive given my experience.

I didn't mean to drone on for as long as I have, but I guess the point I wanted to make is that the Denver market can be very difficult to penetrate, and oftentimes you have to suffer through a less than ideal position in order to advance. If you find yourself in a similar situation again, just try to learn as much as you can while you are there, and always keep an eye on the job boards. You can command much more in terms of pay and benefits from a prospective employer when you already have a job, when you are unemployed prospective employers can take advantage of that and offer you less than they normally would.

Lastly, if you are looking in the Denver area check in with Aerotek...they are an engineering staffing company, and got me my first job out here. Good luck bud!

 

[oldestguy]

How's come no one here has said "do something now to increase your desirability ad an employee?"

I'd get back to school and get a Master's degree with a thesis project that really would get attention. That may well take two, possibly three years" Then, there will be more to offer than a standard education that makes you just another grunt engineer, of which there are plenty. In doing the checking on what to do, be sure the university has the facilities to do plenty of new leading edge stuff. That investment in time and money is much more likely to pay off well.

Short of showing you have something more to offer, get used to being turned down because of what you did as a "child of voting age". I suspect you had too much handed to you as you grew up. Life can be hard and we can't always get what the other guy got early in life.

 

[IRstuff]

There are some risks to not getting a job quickly:

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/terrifying-reality-long-term-unemployment-154818305.html

The gist is that long-term unemployment is overtly or subconsciously screened out, as is job hopping.

TTFN
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[Fasteddie82]

dktoao, you've done a pretty good job of summarizing the pitfalls inherent in the hiring process at most large companies. Applicants are encouraged to "stretch the truth," in order to try to match a list of qualifications that may have no basis in actual ability to perform a job.

However, that's the reality of the way hiring is done at large companies. I agree with all of your points (and I think most others would as well). However, until things change, that's the game one must play.

One caveat---all of the points you raised are part of why people stress networking as being so important. As you've written, the hiring process is convoluted, and fraught with difficulty. If you know someone who can get your resume directly in front of the decision makers, you're able to bypass 90% of the B.S.

 

[berkshire]

Following up on Fasteddies's comments, networking and personal contacts bypassing HR are very often the way to go.
Case in point, an aquaintance of mine was recently laid off from his job in southern california for lack of work.
I gave him a list of companies and contacts that did the same kind of work as the one he had been working at.
On his third phone call ( To a manager , not HR ) he got a "Why yes, we can really use somebody right, now come on down."
B.E.

 

[Sparweb]

(I haven't read anyone else's replies)
Why aren't you interested in going back to Australia to work for the company you quit? You haven't "burned those bridges" have you? Take a bit less than 80k$AUS per year, since they're sticking their necks out a bit for you, and blow half of it on skis and surfboards, and live a little. From all I'm hearing, finding work in the USA still sucks (though getting better now). If you quit a job in your chosen field just to be close to your family then to me you do sound like a "man-child" as you put it.

5 months of data analysis does is not the end of an engineering career, rather, it is the foundation for a good one, if built upon with many years more work and growth into bigger roles.

"... a working holiday in New Zealand to the further detriment of my engineering career..." WTH is wrong with NZ??? What could you possibly engineer in NZ that would be detrimental to your career? It doesn't sound like you've got a wife and kids, so what's so important about being in the USA to get work? Aside from thinking it's the center of the universe?



STF