Differential Driven Turbine

[tscotteng]

Ok, This may not exactly fit in the engine and fuel forum, but it also doesn't really fit into any of the others either. So here goes.

I saw an issue of hotrod magazine (I think it was hot rod) that did a retro story on a product that was marketed in the 70's. It was a rear differential powered turbine. I can't find any reference to it online. I am fascinated by this idea, and I think it would be a kick in the pant to build one. The concept is sound, differential drives the compressor wheel and then you add fuel and the reaction becomes self sustaining as long as you feed it fuel. If memory serves me the only real problem it had was the adsolutely insane amount of power it flooded into the rear wheels. The tires would smoke the whole way down the track.

So my questions are these.
1. Has anyone seen this or at least heard of it? If so what was it called?
2. How difficult do you think it would be to figure this out and possibly build this again?

I think this would be a great show off type of drag race novelty and with todays technology it may be possible to control it and therefore actually be competative. (although I'm pretty sure this would exclude you from almost every racing class)

Let me Know what you all think

Tom

 

[MikeHalloran]

I don't remember it. Maybe I missed an issue.

You'd need a two-spool turbine to move the vehicle from a standing start, or start a single spool turbine during a burnout. With anything close to normal road gears, you'd have to get the vehicle, or at least the rear wheels, up to ~60mph before lighting a single spool turbine.

Maybe you could adapt a helicopter engine. They're not as cheap as they were right after 'Nam; boat racers use 'em now, and they're not price- sensitive.

You'll need a _really_ strong scattershield. Turbine engines are constant- speed devices, and bad things happen to them at other than design speed. Read up on 'surge' and 'compressor stall' before you proceed.

Bring your wallet. Even the nuts and bolts are hideously expensive.

Figure on cooking one diff per run, from the heat not the load.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[tscotteng]

I know I saw it in one of the Car rags, but I just cant find it. It is killing me.

From the article it sounds like they used it as a instant power adder, they would leave the line on motor only and then somewhere down the track they would feed it fuel and spark and it would give a constantly increasing surge of power.

Now, as I think I remember the company actually sold them and even had a version mounted on a Go Kart. I remember it being very small, with a diameter of no more than that of the rear diff. itself and it was probably only 2-3 feet long from what I could tell.

I dont recall the article talking about reliability but I dont think it would have been sold if it killed a diff. each run, I think this thing was only connected to the diff. by a drive shaft and a few mount bolts, other than that it looked self contained.

anyway, I will continue my search and hopefully there will be some more interest in this post.


Tom

 

[Ataloss]

That's funny you mentioned a helicopter engine, just before surfing over to this forum I was reading the Autoweek web page. They have an article about Jay Leno's latest creation, a car powered by a helicopter turbine engine, but converted to bio-diesel to be 'environmentally friendly'.

The car is based on a Corvette Z06, has a body that looks like a mid 90's Cadillac concept car, and has 650hp/400lb-ft. I don't know if the car actually runs or not.

IIRC linking to an outside page is frowned up here (or am I confusing this with another forum?), but go to the Autoweek home page for the article (or any of the numerous other automotive related sites that probably have an article about it).

Bob

 

[MikeHalloran]

I know a guy who puts helicopter engines in boats. He says they're pretty reliable, and externally simple. Modest starting battery, small lube oil pump, not so small fuel pump...

I wasn't aware that any 'conversion' was necessary to make a turbine run on bio-Diesel, except the sort of dirt/water filters that are used on Diesel boats anyway.

I just don't recall seeing anything about a turbine attached to the driveshaft or diff. I do recall an article about an outboard motor spliced into the transmission tailshaft as a booster, or something. I especially don't recall the 'why' part. ;-)




Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[tscotteng]

Hot Diggity, I finally found it. Ebay is good for more than most people realize. It was called the turbonique Turbine it was made as a promotional gimiik for a company of the same name to promote their new fuel.

I am unsure of how to post a picture in this forum,or even if you can. So search for the key word Turbonique, and be inspired. I wthink I would like to build one of these bad boys.

Tom

 

[MikeHalloran]

Oh, yeah, that's a real winner of an idea. This page mentions the fate of Turbonique and its owner:

http://www.vaiden.net/rocket_gokart.html

This page has a little tech info about the axle:

http://www.almar.easynet.be/turbonique.htm

The 95,000 to 5,000 rpm gearbox would be a technical challenge.

Frankly, I don't think they'd let you near a dragstrip with a rig like that today.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[GregLocock]

I am reminded of an Italian aircraft that used a piston/jet hybrid engine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campini_Caproni_CC.2

and

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coanda-1910

The Japanese also used something similar in WW2

Nice links Mike.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[rmw]

Here is a detailed explanation.

http://www.wediditforlove.com/techtalk4.html

rmw

 

[MikeHalloran]

Just so we're clear, we've been talking about two distinct chemicals:

Nitromethane
Nitrocarbol
CH3NO2

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/0457.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng0522.html

It is a useful industrial solvent, alleged modestly difficult to ignite but classified as flammable, shock sensitive when impure.

N-propyl nitrate
Nitric acid, propyl ester
Monopropyl nitrate
C3H7NO3

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/pdfs/0539.pdf

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/ipcsneng/neng1513.html

which Turbonique called Termolene, a name since appropriated for other products. It is a monopropellant rocket fuel with no industrial uses, classified as highly flammable, and shock sensitive whether impure or not.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[MikeHalloran]

Sorry. Make that 'Thermolene'. Dangerous stuff by any name.


Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[boatmotorgod]

I remember a couple of articles on turbonique. Seems they campained a VW bug. I think they wrecked it, you know how VW's like to fly when they go to fast. I think there was a mustang too. The pictures I remember seeing were awe inspiring. The turbonique made serious power, and didn't weigh much. That was a recipe for speed, or disaster.

 

[globi5]

The first post is misleading. The Turbonique concept is not based on a differential driving a turbine (at least according to the articles posted). It is the opposite. A rocket engine powers a turbine which in turn drives the differential.

Any jet driven vehicle, water or air-craft is inefficient at low speeds. This one is not (in comparison).

 

[globi5]

If one wanted to build this again, one could probably use a turbine of a turbo and connect it to a rear axle of a go-kart. (Obviously the gear-box issue would still be there).
Instead of using a 'rocket-engine' to power the turbine, one could use an electrically powered centrifugal supercharger to feed a combustion chamber powering the turbine:
electric motor - supercharger - combustion chamber - waste gate - turbine - gearbox. Since this thing would only need to run 20 seconds (assuming it ignites immediately) or so one wouldn't need a lot of electric energy and it should be relatively safe. (Turbine can't go faster than the wheels and an electric motor is easy to control).
One could also use a turbo as gasturbine with its exhaust stream again driving a turbine of a turbo. (More difficult to control though.)

I wonder though whether that turbonique concept was indeed that dangerous? Apparently they were using the same concept for auxiliary powered superchargers on street driven cars:

http://www.the-rocketman.com/images/tech/gallery5/TURBOCHARGER-ADVERTIS.jpg

 

[schwee]

You might want to check out avonaero.com for used surplus aircraft APU power turbines. Many (most?) include an integral gearbox to get about a 10:1 gear reduction. I'm told a used Allied Signal JFS-100 runs about $4,000 - $5,000.

It sounds like what you are proposing is a 2-spool turbine where you get rid of the "gasifier" turbine--run the gearbox backward and use the differential at 3000 rpm or so to drive a compressor at, say, 60,000 rpm; then just run that straight to the combustor and run a free power turbine off of the combustor. You'd need another gearbox for the power turbine, it would seem to me, which would be sort of weird but might work.

 

[globi5]

What I meant is: Instead of driving the compressor (e.g. of a turbo) by the turbine, drive it by an electric motor and thus do not need to worry about the speed of anything else: Similar to this thing:

http://www.boosthead.com/product.php

(Powering a small turbine of a turbo connected to a go-kart rear axle shouldn't require a lot of compressor power). Besides you don't care about efficiency (high pressure ratio) as long as it ignites.

The waste gate or any valve will make sure that you create some back pressure and don't burn up the turbine while standing.
The Turbonique guys didn't even use any valves they just lit the rocket and off they went (just with significantly more force off the line than what a conventional rocket engine would have achieved).

I guess an even simpler solution could be by using steam. A high pressure bottle mounted on a go-kart filled with water at 250 C. Steam is then released on the turbine of a turbo connected to the rear axle. This should be relatively quiet too and easy to control. (If you only need steam for 1/4 mile, the bottle/boiler might not need to be this big).

 

[JayMaechtlen]

Turbonique's Differential-mounted rig that I read about sounded pretty cool.
I thought they just ran pure Hydrogen Peroxide through the turbine. It drove a second pinion gear, and could just freewheel when not being used for power.
(Peroxide catalyzed becomes steam and free oxygen, right?)

cheers
Jay


Jay Maechtlen

http://home.covad.net/~jmaechtlen/

 

[Tmoose]

I have a 1964-ish article about another Turbonique product. A turbine driven turbocharger/supercharger.