Difficult situation need advice 9

[geekmaiden]

I am an engineer in an equipment repair shop. I work with older men who as they put it 'they have dirt in their toolboxes older than me'. I have only been in an engineering position for a year. I have endured harrassment for the year. The job was worth while because the ops manager, who was the engineer previously, and I had a great working relationship and he had much to teach me. He has been promoted to a different facility. I am currently trying to be the shop engineer and cover his prior duties.

A key part of my job is to make decisions based on information I receive from the guys on the floor. The problem is that they lie. So as a new engineer I can never be sure that I am making the right choices. I have to cross-examine them to be sure the information I am receiving is what they have actually done. This is a long standing situation. My prior boss had the same problem but his experience was his guide. I feel that I am not qualified for the job as it is and having to conduct the third degree is not helping. Since I am doing two jobs I don't have time to perform through interrogations.

I am considering leaving but the thought of quitting is hard for me to handle. I do not see a solution in my current situation. Please advise

 

[GregLocock]

I'm guessing from your ID and note you are young and female.

We used to see this in the workshops all the time, make no bones about it, both harrassment and lying are unacceptable behaviour. It sounds like both have been tolerated for a while, which makes getting rid of them much harder.

If you have strong character you may be able to handle this by yourself, but, that's a big ask. This is what your management and HR department is for. Don't whine, document your case and give it to them to sort out.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Latexman]

geekmaiden,

One of the engineers dilemmas, how to work with management and the guys on the floor at the same time in peace and harmony?

What worked for me, was for the guys on the floor to come to know firsthand that I care. I care about them, their safety, my safety, their family, my family, the equipment, it’s maintenance, the work processes, the control systems, the work rules, the union contract, and management. How’d I do that? Hard work! The first day in my process unit I put on a pair of coveralls and tagged along with the operators. I found out what bothered them or kept them from doing more or a better job. There’s a good chance this problem will be on the to-do list management gave you anyway. When that item broke or happened, I asked them to show me what they do. The next time, when the job got to the critical point I asked them to let me turn the wrenches. And, this was in a plant with a very strong union. It can be done, as long you are genuinely trying to solve a problem and following the rules. Oh yeah, you have to know the rules and ask them how can you go about helping them solve the problem without getting a grievance against you. A lot of this boils down to good old one-on-one open communication with the HR person, the guy on the floor, the shop steward, and the union president. I made it a point to meet all of them, get to know them, and talk with them about what I planned. That way, there’s no surprises, and you’ll be amazed at the help everyone gives you.

This works with most people, but not all. My experience is over 80% of people are basically good, 1-2% are just pure evil, and the rest are in the “lunatic fringe” and they will follow whoever they are around. So, if you have to work with one of the 1-2%? I treated them the same way, until they stepped over the line, then I told them in very plain language that was not acceptable. The second time it happened, I repeated the message to them and went to their boss and my boss. Each time, escalate it further. And this was mentioned by GregLocock and is very important, after every event document what happened and get guidance (your boss and HR) on what to do with the documentation. Be careful when you do this, but don’t back down, or this person will think they own you. My experience is when you make this kind of person follow the rules, just about everybody in the whole damn shop will cheer you on, because they have to pull this clowns weight day after day.


Good luck,
Latexman

 

[waskillywabbit]

Harassment is illegal and should not be tolerated, in any form. What is sad is that some of those men that are harassing you as a female would blow a gasket if someone treated their daughter in the same fashion. Follow the above advice, document, document, document and follow the chain of command. If all else fails, find a good lawyer and take them to the cleaners. No one should have to dread going to work or think about quitting because of juvenile harassment.

Good luck.

Brian

http://www.mcabeeconstruction.com

Opinions expressed are my own and are not those of the company.

 

[HgTX]

Are you still in touch with your old boss? Does he have any advice?

Hg

 

[BobPE]

I kinda agree with latexman, you have to earn their respect to some degree, less any harassment. I learned when I first started that you will have a higher degree of success if you engage them rather than keep your distance. I used to turn wrenches, now granted I was a consultant, but I still got grieved. Go see their problems firsthand, ask them for their answers (they are usually right), find out what their concerns are, find out what makes their days easier. Be positive and do not back down when you feel you are right.

I have several industrial clients and I have several women engineers engaged with those clients and I mentored them all the same way and they have has many of the same struggles with the floor and operations staff as you describe. All my engineers went from really bad first impressions to greatly defended assets to my clients.

I would hope that it is not because you are a woman, if that is the case, then engage them directly with your throughts and demand from them a level playing field with regard to their respect as a place for you all to start from.


Let us know how you make out....


BobPE

 

[BJC]

If your thinking of leaving anyway, get very aggressive. Demand what you need to do your job. You ain't there to be loved. Keep very detailed notes, a diary if you will. Ask your attorney if you have one about what kind of notes and where you should keep them.
You might stir the pot by calling someone in higer management and asking their advise about an attorney. If they ask why, tell them.
If these people were comming into your house and stealing things would you be pissed? would you call the law? If they were out in the parking lot breaking the windows of your car would you stand for that? They are in fact stealing from you livelyhood, your ability to earn money and grow professionally. If you have kids are you going to tell them 20 years from now " I can't send you to college because some men stole your money 20 years ago".
So do your job, take notes, if the company can make it better sue the bastards?

 

[DRWeig]

Geekmaiden,

If your crew is like the ones that my wife (ChE) and I were handed when we were young and fresh out of school, the only times of peace will be when THEY need YOUR cooperation. That is, unless you can bow your neck and somehow get their confidence.

I've seen some really good responses above. Good advice all around, I don't have anything better to add. My eventual success came from 1) picking the worst of the bad apples and documenting him on out the door, and 2) being as fair as I could possibly be, even inviting them all over for a cookout (good eggs and bad).

I just wanted to pitch in my support and let you know that it can work out.

Best to ya,

Old Dave

 

[HgTX]

Do you have any hierachical authority over them? Is there anything you can hold over them? Sometimes all it takes is a little enforcement to demonstrate that you actually do need to be taken seriously. I taught my first college course at 21. My students didn't take me seriously--till they flunked their first exam.

What kind of harrassment are we talking?

I like this part of BJC's post: "If your thinking of leaving anyway, get very aggressive. Demand what you need to do your job. You ain't there to be loved."

If they lie to you, confront them about it. Tell them they're wasting your time with bullshit--and do use that word. Tell them not to do it again. If you think it would do any good, explain what would have gone wrong had you used their bad info.

They're going after areas of perceived weakness--youth, femininity, inexperience. Time to get tough.

But at the same time, there's a balancing act between establishing authority and the positive effect of being one of the guys. Joke with them if you can, and let them joke with you. If they manage to offend you on a social level, never let them see it.

Do you have a personal network of female engineers? Sometimes it's helpful to be able to vent about this stuff in an environment where you don't have to be so anonymous & careful with details. Check to see if your local SWE chapter has an email list or gatherings, though they do seem to be more student-oriented.

Hg

 

[geekmaiden]

Thank you for all the advice.
I can handle the harassment. I can do what needs to be done to get the job done. I have spent all night at customer sites working along side the guys to get problems resolved and then to return to the shop to stay into the wee hours to get other critical work out the door. I have worked on night shift putting in seals because we were short people. I have tried to get inside their heads to understand them.

I cannot deal with the lying because it interferes with work. I do not have the experience to decifer what they are saying. Now they get upset when they realize that I know they are lying and I am trying to ferret out the truth. They are offended that I suspect that they are not the gods of the industry they see themselves.

 

[HgTX]

Eew...hard to get inside that kind of head. What kind of things do they lie about?

Hg

 

[UcfSE]

Are you sure they are lying and not just giving you what they thought was truth? Sometimes the people in the field don't understand enough about what we do and what we need to be able to give us the answer we need anyway.

At first it sounded like you were getting a hard time for being a girl in charge of dudes. Lying however suggests they're just pricks. Don't take it from them. It looks like you have a lot of good advice so you don't need a small novel from me lol. Stand up for yourself. When they see that you can command and deserve the respect you are wanting you just might get it. Other times you just have to beat on ego's with your brain-fist until they crumble. There may be just one or two making the problem. It's not "cool" to do the right thing so one arse can lead many lemmings, over a cliff if need be. Lol, though gods of the industry they aren't, don't forget that they probably still know a lot more about their job than you do. Good luck with that

 

[automatic2]

Some might disagree or be offended, but when there is a union involved, in some cases the objectives and the motivations behind are obscure and not related to your work. You have courage, I applaud, however, you have placed yourself at the feet of lions, and lions have no control over their instincts.

I had the pleasure of working with one of the staunches unions in the country. My strength was my knowledge and experience of the industry. I managed the trades, production, and kept management hopping.

In clear concise language, I issued my expectations, respected those that demonstrated ability, and hunted down those that weren't interested in performance. I can't see it any other way.

If you don't have the backbone, both of knowledge and of character, remove yourself from the arena. You will be demoralized and stripped of dignity.

There's one possibility. Do you have a floor manager/supervisor who you have seen, or know for sure, has taken an employee in for reprimand, has called in the shop stewarts and local reps to be witness to the 'reprimand'? If you don't have someone like that on board to back you up, I suggest you sign up for non floor activity.

 

[Latexman]

geekmaiden,

I think the best approach to the perceived lying is tell the person you suspect, "Show me what you are talking about". Keep digging into the facts until it's obvious to him and you what the truth is.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

Hi GeneratorGrrl! ..... no, wait, that's me, you're Geekmaiden... Got confused there for a second because your situation sounds so familiar! ^_^

I really sympathize with you because its bad enough being a flunky on equal footing with the pricks; its so much worse if you've been placed over them prematurely and without any support Old dogs just don't want to learn from new tricks, is how they see it The upside is, they're often rude to fresh chaps as well; the downside is, they're even ruder to a fresh female. Fortunately these guys are getting closer and closer to retiring and the younger chaps who are replacing them don't seem to have the same hang-ups.

Good advice here, so I won't chime on, except to add that you document all the incidents of lying and what truths you uncovered. Glad to hear they pulled this crap on your old boss as well (as UcfSC says, that proves they're just pricks in general) and glad you've got your spade. The only reason this is a problem is because you're green: You sound like you've got the makings of an excellent manager and if you had the experience you need, you could clean the place up without anyone thinking "oh she's just got her panties in a wad." That said, as difficult as it is for you, this is a trial by fire that will serve you well in the long run. I wouldn't worry much about earning these guys' respect - if they were pulling this crap on your old boss, then chances are they don't respect anybody. You'll get respect from other people and from yourself.

Keep copies of your documents where they can't be found or destroyed. My documenting diary is at home; I scribble notes during the day so I won't forget the events and stuff 'em in my pocket, then write 'em out in my journal at home. When/if you do decide to leave this job, you can present your documentation at your exit interview, as your reasons for leaving. Let them deal with the can of worms and go find yourself a less stressful job. Make no mistake, emotional stress is as toll-taking as physical stress. You have your health to take care of and your career to think of. If the best experience opportunities of this job have dried up and all that's left is stress, then it is indeed time to move on and more power to you.

Let us know how it goes I think all of us, male or female, have run into at least one of these sorts of guys when we were greenhorns, so we can all sympathize with it. The challenge will be remembering it when we're 55 and not doing the same thing to our new young greenhorns ^_~

-- GeneratorGrrl

"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[jmw]

I had a situation when I first started out where I needed to get a change made in a product and straight away ran into the "Man and Boy" attitude: "Oi've been 'ere, man and boy, and me faither afore me, for nigh on 40 yares and we always done it this way, we have." ("Don't teach your granny to suck eggs" is their fond philosophy).

I didn't get anywhere and this problem went as high as the MD (small company) who said he wasn't even going to try as he knew they wouldn't listen to him!

In the end we just waited for the "obstruction" to retire.

"Man management" is a must have skill that you need to acquire. You may wonder why you need it since these people ought to do what they are supposed to do without all the manipulation, but that's life.

Of course, having acquired the skills you won't find it 100% effective; you will always find that some people can be managed and some can't, no matter what.

Sometimes you do just have to wait for them to retire (or get hit by a bus) as they are often just too savvy to be dismissed by any legitimate procedure (especially in a region with strict employment laws).

A useful "nuisance index" is to see how many bosses they've had over the years, some of them have been shuffled around a bit and Company restructures (e.g. changes in management responsibilities) are a good time to change the reporting structure without changing the job descriptions for these types. Many a boss has made the problem people someone else's responsibility.

One ploy used by a company I worked at was to offer one of these problem people a new job, seemingly much better and at a much increased salary.
Of course, they instituted a trial period and effectively got around the employment law so they could drop the axe before the trial period was up.
This was a great wheeze by management (not normally known for lateral thinking) and it would have been better if they hadn't gotten their timing messed up and ended up with a wrongfull dismissal case, but the idea was right, it just needed management/HR to improve their attention span.

These problems can occur at all levels in the company; with the more senior types the accepted way to get rid of them is to promote them out of there! (how do you think so many lame brains got such senior positions?).

Hell of a way to run a business, but there you are.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

You make a good point about 'man management', JMW. I've often complained that I've never had to consciously manipulate people the way I have to here, in my current job. It disgusts me, I *hate* that kind of behaviour with a passion and I feel despicable for doing it, but its the only way I can get anything done.

Guys like these paint themselves a loophole: Because they have strict set-in-stone ideas of how people should behave, you can use that and they can fall into their own traps. I can't just ask our old-dogs to do things (much less tell them!), or they'll get in a snit for the rest of the day. But if I make them feel like it was their idea and they're helping a lil' lady out, it all goes smoothly. Drives me up the wall, but when its boiler-teardown day or we're installing a retro-fit, I *need* their cooperation. But I really prefer working with the one younger guy, whom I can just ask straight and he'll do the tasks without his nads getting offended But if its a task that requires all hands, I gotta suck it up, swallow my pride and pull those old-dogs' puppet strings, just like they complain that each and every woman in their lives has always done. (Makes you wonder why, huh.)

Something that helps in old-dog management is not to get too strung out by their quirks. Things like cussing and pin-up girls and off-colour jokes. Fortunately, I grew up with a stepfather whose every second word was "f---in'", so that just rolls off my back (people know I'm agitated when *I* start talking like that! ^_~ ) and the pin-up girls in their lockers are their business and usually just swimsuit girls. I handle the naughty jokes by slinging a few back (usually better and funnier than theirs :-B ) I always ask myself "Is it a small detail?" (probably, that's why they're overcompensating... ooooops sorry that was a naughty joke ^.~ ) Anyhow, to me, habitual cussing in conversation and swimsuit girls are small details; calling me names while reaming me out, and trying to touch me up are large details - big difference. I don't sweat the small details and I sledgehammer the large details. If its a medium detail getting larger, out comes the diary and when its large enough, off we go to HR. I like my job and I really don't have many problems here, so it behooved me to learn how to pull the old-dogs' strings in order to get along. Not that I won't rejoice when they retire! ^_^



"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[karlbamforth]

Not sure this will help but I had a similar problem when I started with my present company (we get on great now). I am the engineering manager with a staff of 19 but to the annoyance of many I am also the youngest. Hehe.
Some of the staff were lying or maybe just not telling the whole truth, so I implemented a written report form for defects. They soon realised that their lies/errors/ misrepresentation of facts were being recorded in writing along with their signatures.
We don't use it anymore, but now we don't need it.

Good luck.
If it doesn't get better leave. Nothing worse than dreading going to work.

 

[casseopeia]

geekmaiden,

I have some long-term advice for you (something that really helped me.) You will have to deal with bullying, juvenile behaviour throughout your career, but it will definitely lessen the older and more experienced you are. Technical experience is only part of the game. Learning to be effective in interpersonal relationships is the other, something apparently your 'guys on the floor' lack in a big way.

Handle the problem as much as you can without going to a higher authority, such as asking the liers to show you.

Convince yourself to the very core of your being that you deserve respect.

Expecting respect and dealing with the situation head-on will earn respect. If not from the perpetrators, then from those around them.

In your spare time, I have some suggested reading. OK, I know this is going to sound a little woo-woo, new agey and all, but you will have to trust me.

The books are about personality types, similar to the Briggs-Meyers concept.

The costs listed are from half.com, a good source for cheap books.

The Enneagram:Understanding Yourself and Others in Life by Helen Palmer, $1

The Enneagram in Love and Work by David Daniels and Helen Palmer, $4

The Wisdom of the Enneagram by Riso and Hudson, $13.48

Keep us posted and remind me to tell you about the construction superintendant that felt the need to urinate in from of me (at one time on my shoes while I was taling to him) every time I walked onto the site. Gotta run right now.......................

PS: I was a volunteer test candidate at the Enneagram Institute in Palo
Alto and was extensively interviewed by 10 students from all over the world. The decision was unanimous, I'm a counterphobic six.

 

[jmw]

Casseopeia, an interesting web site but why limit ourselves?

A search under "personality types" reveals a range of different typing methods, some of which are more valuable than others. It may help to know what type you are but what you need is some tools to analyse what types others are (you will having difficulty in getting them to submit to such tests) and, more importantly, how to react your type with theirs and achieve the results you want.

Many sites have free trials. I suggest that if this interests you that you try a few of these just to get a balance, who can tell which is more right than another? but I guess I'd be surprised if they contradicted each other. More important, you need tools to help you manage others.

Psychometrics used to be the in-thing for employers, but the last one I was actually asked to take was decades ago. Most employers today seem more interested in finding employees who will work hard for little reward and could care less about personality types.

It may be worth while talking to HR about taking some courses to help you with man management skills.

There are a lot of things they never teach you at college that you discover you need in order to do the job properly. If they post you abroad, you could expect language traing, a new software suite? sure, some product training. Salesmen get sent on sales courses and buyers on buying courses.
Managers get sent on all sorts of courses all the time. Time management is a popular course because companies can see the value of it.

But some companies don't see people as assets, one of the few that can actually increase in value with experience and in whom it is valuable to invest in added training, so investigate your companies attitude to training, they may feel you should "muddle through", "do the best you can" i.e. spout a few platitudes and mark you down as insecure.

I guess much depends on the HR peoples preferences.
Remember, the image you create depends as much on the perceiver as it does on the perceived so softly softly.

PS if you are the worrying type, you might not want to succeed too easily, especially if an experienced boss had these problems before and didn't solve them. It depends on what sort of company you work for. So don't just analyse the obvious problem types; if your boss is secure, he will be comfortable with you solving these problems and even (especially) obtaining training to be able to do so.

Maybe I'm overly cautious here, but more decisions are made on emotions than logic or reason. Don't win the battle and lose the war.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com