Difficult situation need advice 9

[geekmaiden]

I am an engineer in an equipment repair shop. I work with older men who as they put it 'they have dirt in their toolboxes older than me'. I have only been in an engineering position for a year. I have endured harrassment for the year. The job was worth while because the ops manager, who was the engineer previously, and I had a great working relationship and he had much to teach me. He has been promoted to a different facility. I am currently trying to be the shop engineer and cover his prior duties.

A key part of my job is to make decisions based on information I receive from the guys on the floor. The problem is that they lie. So as a new engineer I can never be sure that I am making the right choices. I have to cross-examine them to be sure the information I am receiving is what they have actually done. This is a long standing situation. My prior boss had the same problem but his experience was his guide. I feel that I am not qualified for the job as it is and having to conduct the third degree is not helping. Since I am doing two jobs I don't have time to perform through interrogations.

I am considering leaving but the thought of quitting is hard for me to handle. I do not see a solution in my current situation. Please advise

 

[HgTX]

"I'd be surprised if they contradicted each other."

I wouldn't. I took a bunch of the online tests and came up with all different answers.

However, it's not a bad idea to take a look at *all* the "care and feeding of Type XYZ" advice--it's all tools, regardless of whether or not you believe what they say about which tools should apply to who(m).

Hg

 

[Latexman]

casseopeia,

"Handle the problem as much as you can without going to a higher authority, such as asking the liers to show you."

Glad you agree. Just last night I used this on my 11 year old son right before bedtime. It kinda went like this:

Meo you have your retainer in your mouth?

Son:Yes.

Me:Show me.

Son(with no retainer):I left it at school.

Me:At this stage, you need to keep your retainer in at all times, except when you eat. Did you brush your teeth?

Son:Yes.

Me:Show me your tooth brush.

Son(with a dry toothbrush):Uh, I forgot.

Melease floss and brush now. I want to see if you do it correctly.

Yes, I stood there and watched him. He also lost some privileges for the next two days. I plan to check again tonight.



Good luck,
Latexman

 

[BJC]

geekmaiden
Sounds like casseopia amd jmw are working on a solution to change your outlook, like it's your fault. Good ideal-if you can't change the world, change yourself (the problem must be with you). IF they were giving that advice to may daughter I'de be all over them like white on rice. We've all got problems and can analyze ourselves for endlessly. I don't think the problem is you, do you?
jwm's ideal for a proceedural base paper system is good. You can use it to analayze job the problems associated with them and improve work practices. If lying is a problem that cost the shop time and money you will be able to show it.

 

[geekmaiden]

Thanks for all the advice. I have decided to stick it out but to also look for other opportunities.
I had the flu when I wrote the post. When I get a fever I become a candy@ss.
My other problem is that I am not emotional. I am too logical. To me there is acceptable behavior and there is unacceptable behavior. What I consider unacceptable behavior is lying. I regret that I can’t trust all of them. I have shown them in past that I understand when they make mistakes and I have worked with them to come up with solutions. My past behavior has shown them there is no need to lie. The guys who have come to me with mistakes have been pleasantly surprised with my responses. I don’t care about blame I only care about solutions and not having that problem again. I do have a few guys that are problems and they have been everyone else’s problems for at least 10 years. I am going to take ownership of them and try to solve it the best way I can. If I make the wrong decision New Guy can fire me. Either way it will be an interesting learning experience.

For books on Personality disorders the book by Beck et al. are great. They are doing research on the subject. They have written Cognitive therapy for Personality Disorders. I have to get there Behavioral therapy for personality disorders.
If you want a light read on the subject “Toxic Coworkers: How to deal with Dysfunctional People on the Job” by Alan Cavaiola

 

[GeneratorGrrl]

I think you're going to make an excellent manager, Geekmaiden, and I think many people here are going to envy those chaps for being under someone who seeks to solve problems rather than pin blame. Good on you and best of luck wherever your decisions take you!

-- GeneratorGrrl

"Eat well, exercise regularly, die anyways."

 

[HgTX]

"My other problem is that I am not emotional. I am too logical."

You say that like it's a bad thing...

Hg

 

[Latexman]

Forget all those books! How do you tell an extravert engineer from an introvert engineer?

An extravert engineer looks at your shoes when he/she is talking to you.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[GregLocock]

and the introvert looks at his own.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[casseopeia]

I feel the need to clear some stuff up

geekmaiden:

There is a difference between being emotional and having emotions.

Emotion is NOT within your control, your reaction to it is.

In your second post you say "my behavior has shown them there is no need to lie." You are still equating the shop boys lying with YOUR behavior. My take on this is that you are still looking at the situation through the lens of self-blame. And yes I AM suggesting a change in perspective. Stop blaming yourself for the actions of others.

Is is possible that the shop boys lie out of another motivation, job preservation for one. Is it possible that the lying is so ingrained that they don't even recognize it as lying? A change in perspective may change your interpretation of the actions of the obstructionist and his minions.

I originally intended to suggest a way to engage your obstructionist. Maybe he feels passed over or ignored. Perhaps a meeting (private or group) with the stated goal of asking for 'help develop a way to submit more accurate reports', or 'how do we become the best shop in the company... industry...world.' Or a more direct approach would be to relate your observations about the inaccurate information to the obstructionist in private. Say that you value his thoughts, experience, etc. and ask how he would suggest the two of you work out the differences.

I would suggest that most people will not react cooperatively when aggressively challenged or spoken to in a parental tone. Start with the goal of working out a cooperative solution. If that does not work, increase the level. Document your strategies and the results.

The Enneagram is only one path to self-observation. There are many paths. It is not for analyzing personality disorders. For that I would have suggested Dialectical Behavior Therapy. The Enneagram was developed for normal to high achievers. I would guess that you fall into the high achiever category.

jmw,
You said it best "don't win the battle and lose the war" Put's it in a nutshell. BTW, which website are you talking about? The only one I referenced was half.com. And I never limit myself.

 

[CRG]

geekmaiden, could you give two typical examples of the type of lying that is done? I have read the posts, and I could use some clarity what you consider a lie. I have heard people say that our president lied about weapons of mass destructions; however, others would state that he was misinformed. The truth may remain in your preconceived perspective. Are these overstatements of the truth, or just flat out lies? Do the shop people lie to each other for some twisted since of humor?

 

[Latexman]

CRG,

Excellent request. We need data!

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[ScottyUK]

geekmaiden,

You have a great attitude. I wish you would come and work here. Good luck. There is some excellent advice above.



----------------------------------

If we learn from our mistakes,
I'm getting a great education!

 

[automatic2]

One of the questions on your company's job app. is not likely 'are you honest?'. That basic human characteristic is not a prerequisite for hiring, and cannot be used for firing, unless...

It should be made clear to every employee your (company's) expectations on performance. If an employee is injuring the 'activity of carrying on business', then you have cause for discipline. Care should be taken however to determine if the obstruction is intentional or of weakness. Some will argue it's the same but the later could be diagnosed as psychotic. The suggestion of taking to task these obstructions is right on. Show me, tell me how, where's the proof. In all cases however you are challenging the qualifications that they(the obstructor) should have in respect to their posting (because anything else is irrelevant and a distraction initiated by yourself).

Care needs to be exercised to the relevancy of the activity. Disrespect is in many cases, the default, and may have developed that way from years of poor floor management (you of course are silent to this possiblity). Teaching people dignity by way of example will garner respect, it just depends on how deep the pool is. Disciplining someone who has been taught disrespect won't be worth the troubles.

Once again though, today is the best time to begin a program of awareness, that the company's policies are serious and that the employees are here for a purpose and that those that do not contribute as required to the 'purpose', will have correct actions invoked. The future of their relationship with the company will then be determined by their responses to this action.

 

[geekmaiden]

There have been misunderstandings or the person thinks they are telling me the truth. Those I can live with. The fact that I need a rubber hose and bare electrical wires some days to get the truth is a little troubling.

One case of lying came when the were removing a threaded piece and it got stuck. They came to me for advice. I asked them if there was a piece of pin that maybe holding it up.
Guys "No we removed the entire pin"
Me "You started backing the piece off and then it jammed?"
G "Yes"
M "You removed both pins?"
G "Yes, here are the pins."
M "Where is the piece that is missing on the bottom?"
G "It fell on the floor. I saw it drop. Do you want me to find it for you?"
M “No.” Like and idiot I trusted him. I feel like latexman with his son. They are supposed to be skilled professionals.

We got the piece off and there was the piece of the pin stuck in it. Temporary new guy was walking around the shop the first day. As I walk up to TNG and the guy that assured me there was no pin left, he announces we left a pin in there.

Another case of lying came when one of the guys had to pin a piece that required to be torqued to a shaft.
Guy “I am going to drill a countersink into the shaft because the original hole didn’t line up”
Me “We need to drill more than a countersink. First we need to know where the original hole was. Did you mark it?”
G “I don’t know where it is.”
M “You torqued it to 1000ft lbs and the holes didn’t line up?”
G “Yes, do you want me to untorque it to mark the hole?”
I had to put him on hold to answer a phone call.

Come to find out they had not torqued it to 1000ft-lbs. The foreman let them use other means to tighten. So I had to have them back it off and retorque it. The only way I found out about it was when we were trying to torque a different piece and needed a socket reducer. When we couldn’t find it, the question came up of how did they torque the other one. I have learned more about my foreman these past couple of weeks. If he gets wound up about something or someone his judgment is affected. If he gets frustrated or thinks something is taking too long his judgment is affected.

This facility has had more managers than others. There has been sins of management in the past. But there are individuals out here that are not allowed in the other shops. The managers refuse to let them work on their jobs.

 

[jmw]

I guess that this says it all:

This facility has had more managers than others. There has been sins of management in the past. But there are individuals out here that are not allowed in the other shops. The managers refuse to let them work on their jobs.

....and comes as no surprise.

It sounds as if you have done some talking around on this and presumably have found out who has tried to do what before and why it failed. Did you find out why no one has taken more serious measures before to get control of this department?

On the plus side, what it does mean is that if you fail to get these guys sorted out, you are doing no worse than anyone else has done and, in a fair world, no one will hold it against you if times get tough.

It might mean that you will want to get support if you ultimately decide to play hardball and should have no trouble getting it.

I would try and get some alignment i.e. get HR and your boss conversant with the problem and with the fact you want to do something about it. Get advice, ideas and most importantly, their support of you in whatever you try to do.

Plan for contingencies e.g. a walk-out, sabotage etc. Expect casulaties in a worst case scenario and be sure that you agree with HR who will go, if they must, in plenty of time for them to do some succession planning.

You might find that when you study on it some more you will find one or two key instigators or influences for whom there is no solution but firing and that this may have a salutory effect on the others.

By the way, I assume you have worked out who are the reliable workers as they must form the core of the department when the dust settles.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[IRstuff]

Part of being a manager or a superior, is "calibration" of others. This is something you'll learn to do as well.

In bottoms-up bidding we ask a bunch of engineers how much time and material is required to perform their tasks. Some will bid high, others will bid low. Over time, you'll figure who does what and adjust accordingly.

Similarly, now that you've built up some experience, hopefully, you'll know who you can trust to tell you the straight truth and who the habitual liars are; and act accordingly.

There's a medical TV show where the main character insists that "all patients lie."

While some patients do not overtly intend to lie, the end result is the same:

D: "Why didn't you tell that you had a heart condition?"
P: "I don't, I'm taking medication for it."






TTFN

 

[CRG]

I see multiple problems with both the shop and geekmaiden’s approach. One positive thing to say is because there are so many problems; it shouldn’t take much to make a little improvement.

About the torque issue. Depending on the shop procedures and the qualifications of the technicians, I would question whether anyone lied. Here are some life experiences with this:

I worked in the oil field as an engineer. If I asked one of the field hands to torque a 1500# flange, I would not have expected him to grab a hand sledge and hammer wrench. Then put the wrench on the bolts and beat the wrench with the sledge hammer until he though it was tight. This is not what comes to my mind when I say torque; however, it was commonplace for the environment. It took a few months of working in the field side by side with these guys to learn how they worked and the vocabulary they used to describe it.

I managed an automotive repair shop in the 1970s and if I asked a mechanic if he had torqued the lug nuts on a car, he would have said yes meaning he used an air wrench and rattled them tight or he leaned heavily on a lug wrench. Things have changed where using torque wrenches on lug nuts should be mandatory.

If I was required to torque a critical bolt set and could not fit a torque wrench on some of the bolts, I might torque the ones I could reach with a torque wrench and use an end wrench on the other bolts carefully comparing the hand torqued bolts with those tightened with a calibrated torque wrench. If I were asked if I torqued the bolts, I would say yes.

Unless there if formal training and/or written procedures in the shop showing the approved methods of tightening the shaft in question there was no lie. In addition you stated that the mechanic used an approved method (at least approved method by the foreman) of tightening the bolt. Geekmaiden, it sounds like you need to stop calling these guys liars and stop interrogating them as if they were liars. Perhaps, you should spend some time to learn the shop procedures so you can effectively perform you job. If torque was a critical issue with the fastener, I would have asked were the threads lubricated, were they dry, what torque method was used, could someone had inadvertently used the wrong toque multiplier, etc. What you should have learned is that you shop needs some formal procedures and appropriate training for the hands.

About the broken pin. Geekmaiden, you made a mistake about the pin: G "It fell on the floor. I saw it drop. Do you want me to find it for you?" You should have said yes. A fragment could have hit the floor with the rest still being stuck in the shaft. I know that this is difficult for a new engineer; however, blaming the workers at bottom of the barrel will not bring you success. Learn to work with the hands you have if you want to succeed. You may need to fire one or two of the floor hands to get the attention of the others. I believe it is wrong to blame your problems on those with the least education and training. Become a leader and put together a training program. You may not be able to turn these pig ears into a silk purse; however, you might turn them into a handsome leather bag.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Geekmaiden, I had a similar situation with my own "F Troop."

It didn't have a happy ending. They were more afraid of the shop super than they were of me. I'm long gone. So is the shop, but that's another story.

If you can't get a guy fired for saying "I saw it drop.", when it clearly didn't, you'll never get the crew's respect, and the company will never get that operation under control.



Mike Halloran
NOT speaking for
DeAngelo Marine Exhaust Inc.
Ft. Lauderdale, FL, USA

 

[automatic2]

Here's the question I have in regards to the pin. Who was in charge, were they sufficiently qualified, and was the mishap negligence. You must positively answer these questions, letting those involved know that you are evaluating. This has nothing to do with lying, it has everything to do with supervisory/management skills.

 

[geekmaiden]

CRG it is interesting that you say “look for the pin yourself”. I started to look but the thought that these are adults who are paid for their experience was racing through my head. My mistake was that I gave trust that was not earned.

Actually there are procedures that are written for every job. The job that required the torque showed the required torque and the torque if the converter was used. They sign off when they complete work.

I am not blaming the workers. I am more lamenting the fact that some lack integrity. Integrity is irrelevant to one’s education level. If integrity were tied to education then the majority of politicians would not be able to pass kindergarten.

We do have some reliable workers that I would take a bullet for them. They work hard and they are part of solutions. They are just good people.