Dilemma 1

[qeworld]

I just started working at an engineering firm (I am a PE) and we have bit of a situation. We just found out that we had a design flaw in one of our designs for a project built a year ago due to a calculation mistake. I immediately went to my boss and informed him about it. I spoke to one of our senior engineers and she agrees. This is a typical project we do and have had no failures for the last few years we started doing it inspite of the same design flaw. The senior engineer believes the design flaw might cause public safety issues and is trying to convince my boss to get it fixed and has already created a fix. He has not yet being accepting that it needs to change and is relying on his judgement,experience and previous projects and does not feel it is warranted. He wants to change the upcoming projects but not fix the old ones currently and is thinking about what to do with the old ones.

What if my boss does not agree? Can I or the senior engineer(she signed two of these projects) go to the client directly and explain the situation. She says she is ready to lose her job and license over this. Or does the buck stop at my boss..we informed him of the situation and since he is the owner and has much more experience than us, it is his decision to make (talk or not talk to client and get it fixed) ?

 

[SLTA]

Call your licensing board. My state has a lawyer available at the board to answer just this type of question. I would think that notification of the concerns in writing, with a big ol' paper trail and multiple copies, would be the place to start.

Remember Bill LeMessurier.

Please remember: we're not all guys!

 

[MacGyverS2000]

If it's a public safety issue, the buck cannot stop at your boss... when you received your PE, you agreed to keep public safety in mind. If your boss could stop that process in its tracks, the entire system would fail.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[zdas04]

This gets clear with a slight change in perspective. You as a P.E. know of a potentially dangerous component of several projects. Doing nothing would cost you your license (at least) if there is actually a failure from this component. You've notified your boss that you and a second P.E. feel that this flaw creates an ongoing hazard to the public. The boss stated an intent to do nothing. If it stops there, then silence is consent. A failure makes all your e-mails and calcs discoverable and you become an accessory to a crime (or at least to civil action).

I would write a letter to all of the affected clients, with the signature block blank. Lay it on his desk and say "you sign it or I do, but this is going out."

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[Lomarandil]

I agree with the sentiments above, but before resorting to those actions, take a step back.

Is it a flaw that definitively causes a public safety issue?
Is it a flaw that causes the widget to not calc out, but may still work?

I've found that as I've gained experience, there are several categories of structures that are prone to working even though I can't readily explain why they would on paper. Usually it comes down to the assumptions -- and there are dozens of those we make every time we put pencil to paper. Even correct ones.

Now, some of those categories I'm particular about, especially when it comes to risk to public safety. I want those to demonstrably calc out. Others, if it doesn't quite work on paper, but experience says otherwise, I can allow some leniency and judgement.

Given the way you've addressed the problem, you have probably already done this. But it was one of the lessons I had to learn as a young engineer.

 

[msquared48]

If he refuses to give you a reasonable timeline to address and solve this, get another job, write the letter to the clients, cc him, the jurisdiction, your compatriot, and your lawyer.

Don't include him in your future references.

Mike McCann, PE, SE (WA)

 

[GregLocock]

I did just gently wonder whether that although the design may not work as intended, that due to the inevitable redundancies and factors of ignorance safety in real world structures it would still be safe. If it is and there is a good rationale (better than 'none of them have fallen down yet') then it may be that the boss is right.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[qeworld]

Thanks fellow engineers, we are still in the process of trying to convince our boss about the severity of the problem. We both are keeping an open mind for a "while" and trying to look at in different ways. This is a gravity connection design (floor live and roof live/snow involved) and the fix in our minds can easily be done. However, it has be done on all projects for the past few years. Our boss's take is with same design loads nothing has happened for the past few years so there is a flaw in your calculation. However, he is unable to prove it based on calculations. In some cases, overstress is 5%(which we are ready to let go) and some 400% (which we feel we cannot let it go uncorrected). Somwhere our design assumptions are wrong or we have been extremely lucky that design loads especially roof snow has never been reached. We are going to suggest a peer review by somebody else so that a third unrelated party can give its unadulterated opinion. And if the peer review is done(if not agreed upon we are going to the client) and still our boss does not budge we will inform the client.

Shouldn't the company insurance be used in such cases? Is this what my boss does not want to invoke? It will increase the premiums for sure and we might lose the client. But,I feel in case of failure he will lose a lot more.

Another issue is our senior engineer has moved out of the US about a year ago to setup local presence of our company in her home country to do local projects and is no longer in touch with clients directly. I have just joined the firm. Will her complete lack of contact and my unfamiliarity with client make our dialogue/letter to the client odd. What if the client does not do anything after our communication?

 

[IRstuff]

"He has not yet being accepting that it needs to change and is relying on his judgement,experience and previous projects and does not feel it is warranted."

This is why two Space Shuttles were lost in "accidents" that were waiting to happen. Just because nothing has failed yet, proves nothing, only that the right (or wrong) circumstances have not yet happened. A design flaw simply means that that design fails for one or more specific conditions. Unless those conditions occur in the actual implementations, they might be never fail. It's just a statistical bet.

One disturbing possibility is that there is another undiscovered design flaw that compensates for the one that was discovered. It's only after a failure that we often find that there were multiple contributing factors that caused the final failure. One good example of this is the (in)famous units mismatch that caused the Mars Climate Orbiter. While the root cause was the incorrect units, there were multiple points during the flight to Mars that course irregularities were noticed, but ignored. Ultimately, at least 4 other failures were required to actually allow the root cause to result in the loss of the craft. Three of these other failures were to arbitrarily correct the course error without a suitable explanation of why the error occurred.

TTFN
faq731-376

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Of course I can. I can do anything. I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
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[GregLocock]

Wow that's a good one, I hadn't heard that, it's the O rings all over again


Cheers

Greg Locock


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[EmmanuelTop]

If the flaw will result in consequences for public/personnel safety, this could affect you not only from the judiciary point of view but also from the personal, moral perspective - which I believe carries much more weight than anything else. Knowing that you could prevent from something bad happening, and not doing it, can lead to many downfalls in your personal, psychological, and spiritual life. The true question is - could you live with it? If the answer is no, the decision is straightforward.

"What is the profit of a man who gains the whole world..."

Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE

 

[EmmanuelTop]

See the files at:

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=383357

Dejan IVANOVIC
Process Engineer, MSChE

 

[qeworld]

My boss explained today that he will get it fixed but there is a process involved and might take some time. How much time do we give him?

 

[zdas04]

I would say a few days to communicate a problem description and a schedule to the affected clients.

David Simpson, PE
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[MJB315]

Failures are a plague on everyone's houses. You'll be pulled in regardless of what your boss writes off.

"We shape our buildings, thereafter they shape us." -WSC

 

[tstructural]

Engineers have lost their license for not ratting out their boss.

In one case I'm aware of - the engineer reported the problem only to have it ignored. When questioned later (after a failure and someone died) he said "I told my boss about it and if I took it any higher I would have fired and never given another jobin this industry". I don't recall the exact industry but his engineering experience was specialized in foundries or something like that. The board responded "Yes - and you should have been proud of yourself. We expect you to lose your job or even career in a single industry if that's what it takes to protect the public".

So - someone died and he lost his career anyway. They took his license for life - not just a suspension.