Do I go to school, or take formation during work? 11

[PatCouture]

Hi

I'm a 22 years old Technician in mechanical engineering, I've been working for about Three years as a Technician, designing machine for the food industrie in a small company. During those 3 years I learned a lot on the job and I been offered a promotion to be in charge of R&D. There's a lot of potential in that and I would be very happy to fullfil that role. On the other hand I would like to get more knowledge about engineering to be able to do better and more sophisticated machines.

So I am considering going back to school full time, to take the engineering class, and sacrificing this opportunity. Or taking the job and taking some classes paid by the company, at the same time.

What's best learning at school and getting a diploma, or learning on the job?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Patrick

 

[COKA]

Excellent answer, CSEllc!!

The morale of the story? Don't put off things for tomorrow if you can do them today!

Coka

 

[JRW261]

CSEllc, I disagree with the comments "You will be more marketable w/ a degree than without a degree. With the degree you can "achieve" more than without one."

He doesn't need to be more marketable at the moment. Sure, in the future if he is unhappy and wishes to move else where in his profession, it will be useful. Obviously his employer thinks he is a valueable resource AS IS, and if they felt he NEEDED a degree, they would tell him to get one or offer him help to get one. With that said, no, the degree CANT hurt. But if you goto school full time, chances are the job wont be there when your done.

The sencond half of that comment was that the degree allows you to acheive more with one than with out one. I totally disagree. You are what you make of yourself, bill gates is a prime example. Most people need the aid or motivation that college provides to learn and excel in the trade of their desire. Some do not need this motivation. Just because you(not you personally) have a ME degree doesn't make you gods gift to the world, someone with out the degree can accomplish the same things that one with the degree can.

Dont take any of those comments personally, they were not ment to be. I was trying to be general.

Coka, your moral is correct..... and can go both ways.

 

[aspearin1]

It's clear what Patrick is leaning toward. Any more discussion on the subject is probably more than he was looking for. (But here goes anyways.) Getting back to JRW's comments, it's true that people find their inspiration in different places. I for one had little motivation through college. I did horribly at book work and excelled on projects. Now that I'm in the working world, I excell at my work because it's a project type of job. But then again, I find myself going back to the books so I can do more with my projects. So you can say for me, that my working in the real world has given me that inspiration to go back to school and given me that motivation I never really achieved in my undergraduate college career. For the record, people can, do, and have quite successfully completed their undergraduate degrees while juggling a family and household. It's not easy, but then again, that's what makes it so meaningful. If life is always easy, then you're not challenging yourself enough.

ChemE, M.E. EIT
"The only constant in life is change." -Dan Andia; 1999, Chemical Engineering Progress

 

[CSEllc]

Lets look at the big picture.... a few years go by, he never went back to school never got his degree...he basically is stagnant....there is only so much you can do in the engineering world without a degree and the knowledge that comes with the degree.

He will always have to look over his shoulder wondering if the next employee will show him up and out shine him, or will he have to rely on his subordinates for the back-up because he doesn't havce the background to do it himself?

Does he become the "idiot boss" that we all love to write about "making the buck but doesn't know is ass from his elbow?" Will he be able to get their respect without the degree, especially since other will have one?

In the long run, having the degree is more marketable....even if he decides to leave this office and go elsewhere.

My opinion.....forget the money now......get the education and you will make more money in the long run.

Regarding Bill Gates, etc., he may have dropped out of college but at least he was there.

 

[PatCouture]

I love your last post CSELLc because I'm already concern about what could happen if someone with more qualifications would be part of the company and come challenging me, I know I'm good at what I do but still there's a lot of things that I don't know about engineering.

Patrick

 

[trainguy]

Pat,

Most people your age move onto another job after 3 years, esp. if it's their first job. That being said, I don't see why you shouldn't go back to school. At your age, you learn quickly, you don't have to raise your kids, and pay all the expenses associated with being a dad, etc.

I am 39, and currently a first time dad, etc, and there's no way in hell that I'm going to take ANY courses in the short to medium term. Too busy, too tired.

Do it now (school). If I had a nickel for every time I heard people say - "I should have done this degree, etc", I'd have , well, many nickels.

Another neat thing about having an engineering degree, you can work in MANY fields, and not necessarily related to engineering, even if you're NOT Bill Gates.

tg

 

[Lorentz]

Wow! This thread sure is generating activity!

COKA, do you know if MetalMan14 ever found employment? Remember he was the one who started the thread:

Is there any hope for us entry level engineers?
thread730-83140

His profile shows he hasn't logged in for some time. I fear he may have lost interest like dhp78 who started the thread:

Is there more to engineering than this.?
thread731-17937

PatCouture, you are already more successful than many people with engineering degrees. Talk to your boss before you decide to pass up the promotion. I wouldn't be surprised if he told you that you will in fact be able to hire (and fire) engineers with university degrees as you see fit. The flip side of this is that if you pass up the promotion and get your degree, you might end up working for a technician/technologist.

There is a common misconception that since engineering is a profession, engineers are more or less on par with other professionals such as doctors. In fact, the "profession" of engineering is not at all like the medical profession. I've never heard of doctors who couldn't find employment and were forced to become high school biology teachers, but I do know of a Ph.D. in electrical engineering who is teaching high school physics. I have never heard of a doctor working as a subordinate to a nurse, but I know of many engineers who are supervised by technicians or trades people. And I have never heard of anyone flying to Asia to save on medical bills, but I do know that most large companies are setting up R&D and "value" centers in India and China where they can pay the engineers 80% LESS than they would have to pay engineers in North America (see Smartech's April 15th post in the thread: Accept the Counteroffer ?
thread731-92139).

Frankly, I think you could be passing up the opportunity of a lifetime. At least try the R&D manager's job for a year to see if you like it.

Have a good weekend everyone!

 

[IRstuff]

Re: doctors.

That's because the bottleneck is National Resident Matching Program (NRMP). In order to become a doctor, you must have a minimum of 3 yrs as a resident. But, only about half of the annual applicants are actually accepted. Thus, the supply is rigidly constrained.

While doctors are not directly supervised by nurses; any doctor that works for an HMO is, in essence, working for a bean-counter who dictates what is covered, allowable and billable. This is further aggravated by the overall squeeze on reimbursements, which forces doctors to spend less than 10 minutes, on average, with a patient.

As for Asia, since most Americans are covered by insurance, which will not reimburse for out-of-network, such as Asian, doctors, there is no incentive to go there. BUT, there's certainly lots of incentive to go to China to get kidney transplants and the like. In fact, my aunt got two kidney transplants in China, due to the first one failing.

TTFN

 

[zdas04]

PatCouture,
A lot of noise since you asked me to clarify my "distance learning" comment. If you're still interested ...

Do a Google search on "distance learning" and get 5 million hits (add Qubec and Engineering and it is still over 40k).

There is a rather lengthy thread in one of the fora here about "will distance degrees ever reach high status" or some such. There are a LOT of opinions in that thread including several from people who worked, got a distance degree without ever being on campus, and now have ABET-certified engineering degrees from major schools (I recall one individual has a degree maybe from Georgia Tech without ever being in Georgia).

The intent of Distance Learning is to let an individual do the course work for a college education more or less at his own pace and in his own location (yes, even in Canada).

Were I in your shoes, I would have my cake and eat it too and never look back.

David

 

[GregLocock]

Let's get our crystal balls out. Take it as an assumption that Pat is lucky to be offered this job and would be unlikely to swing a similar position in a different company (I'm not being rude, just realistic).

so, in 6-8 years time which is the better resume?

1) Manager of R&D department for 6 years, two years of part time study for engineering degree completed.

2) An engineering degree and two years work as a graduate engineer.

I know which one is more likely to get the senior job.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[COKA]

to Lorentz,

I was actually thinking about MetalMan14 a couple of days ago. I checked the thread and he marked it, so I droped in a couple of words asking how his job search was going. Maybe we'll get a response from him.

Coka

 

[rmw]

CLEssc,

I am getting into this thing late, but you used the word "stagnant" in a post several posts back. I think the word "stuck" fits better.

rmw

 

[jbel]

PatCouture,

Let's talk hypothetically. If you wait a few years and start a family and have kids and then decide that you really do want to go back to school you will end up in the situation that I am in right now.

I am a card carrying journeyman tool and die maker working as an engineering technician. I am married and have two kids, a 1 year old and a 3 year old who is turning 4 this weekend and I own my own home. I currently work about 55 hours a week to support my family and my wife stays at home to take care of the children. At the same time I am taking 12 credit hours this semester at the local university as I am pursuing my BSME.

I work seven days a week to get those 55 hours and have had a total of four days off this year. My employer lets me work a flexible schedule so that I can attend classes when they are offered and still get my hours in every week. I am writing this email on Sunday morning at 11 AM from work. I am working from 5 AM to noon today and worked from 5 AM to noon yesterday too.

This semester I am taking: vibrations, machine design, and kinematics and dynamics of machinery. Each a four credit hour class.

My son's birthday party is today and I am at work. I will make it home just in time to be there for the party. I will not have time to help my wife get ready for the party. His birthday is actually on Monday so we will celebrate with family then.

But, I have a vibrations test this week and projects due for machine design, and kinematics. I am torn between finishing up my projects and studying for finals and my son's birthday. Of course, I will be there for my son and the schoolwork will have to suffer. So to make up for it I will be going to the library every night this week after work and studying until they close. As a consequence I will see my kids for about a half hour before they go to bed each night.

I have been doing this for four years now going part time and I have two years left if I take three classes a semester and two in the summer.

Pat, THIS SUCKS!!!!!!!

Do not let yourself get into this situation. If you feel that you have even the slightest inkling that you would like to attend school and get a degree, DO IT!!!!!

Do it now before you get into a situation that makes it almost impossible to get that degree.

Oh yeah, did I mention that my wife has taken to just about hating me for never being home???? But the outlook for tool and die makers in this country isn't good and I need to provide for my family. So, I am going to stick with it and quite possibly end up in divorce court.

Please take this as a warning, not a sob story. I am asking for no one's pity or admiration. I am just doing what I think is right so that I can fulfill the responsibility of providing for my family. I don't wish my situation on anybody because, man, its tough. I will do it, and I will be a better person for it, but please, for your own sake, go now if you ever want to go.

 

[Lorentz]

Hi jbel:

You are certainly burning several candles at both ends. I hope that getting the degree works out for you, but if you are studying engineering because "the outlook for tool and die makers in this country isn't good," you may be jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Take a look at the thread:

Engineering is Going Overseas - Goodbye Jobs II
thread730-85176

and as far as earning prospects for engineers, check out:

Job Advertisement, 2 posts – Plumber £60k, Engineer £25k.
thread730-89244

there you will find an engineer contemplating a new career as a bricklayer!

Your situation reminds me a bit of a fellow I knew who dropped out of high school to become a machinist. At 29, he went back and took his grade 12, then went on to finish a mechanical engineering degree. But then he couldn't find a job in his field and was forced to take a job as an electrical service technician. Though he had no background for this kind of work, the company that hired him didn't care because they were embarking on a new line of business: cleaning up PCB contaminated transformer oil. A senior technician of this company would have nothing to do with this project, and a junior technician who was slated for it quit after only 4 months on the job. As a result this "plumb" assignment went to the former machinist who had tried to better himself by getting an engineering degree. In my opinion, he wasted his money.

It sounds like your prospects are better than the fellow I've just described, but still not as good as PatCouture's prospects are right now (even without a degree).

Once again, I'll state that engineering is not a profession on the same level as medicine (or dentistry, or pharmacy etc.). For many, the only reward for years of study and thousands of dollars spent is a framed degree on the wall.

Good Luck to us all!

 

[IRstuff]

You were expecting a Nobel Prize?

You seem to have profession envy. You get to make lasting things, exercise your brain, do real science/engineering, instead of digging around in mouths with halitosis or explaining 30 times a day that the cold remedies are in Aisle 5 on the left hand side.

I've been in engineering for 27 years (yikes!) and have yet to think that I went wrong. I still get to learn new things, tinker with hardware, conceptualize new systems. This has been the only job I can think of that pays me to pursue my hobby.

TTFN

 

[rmw]

We did a computation when I was an engineering student about a hypothetical buddy of ours who went into a brick layers' apprenticeship directly out of HS, while we went into (then) a 5 year engineering education, all based on the prevailing union scale, and engineering starting salaries of the day.

Our brick layer buddy hypothetically over his lifetime made more than any of us would in our lifetimes, because he got a head start at a good hourly wage. (assuming he could lay bricks as long as we could operate a slide rule)

However, for all the good that little exercise did our morale, I noticed no one left engineering school, and applied for a brick layer apprenticeship.

If it is what you like, and if it will provide for your family in the long run, stick it out, jbel, and patcouture, get the education as jbel states.

rmw

 

[jmw]

At some point you need to talk to your boss.
You started the thread on the 22nd April. If you take too long to decide, he will become perplexed that you haven't jumped at the chance he is offering you.

There has been lots of either or advise but the best advise would seem to be to have your cake and eat it too; i.e. take the job and get your degree nights.

If your boss is prepared to take a chance on you, then he values you. You are in a strong bargaining position. It is in both your interests to develop your abilities further. You both need to look to the future of the company and what you will need to bring to your responsibilities then, not just now.

If he hasn't offered you support with a degree it is possibly because he didn't think of it. Talk to him about your aspirations (as if not just for yourself but for the company too) and see if you can agree to some flexibility about hours etc while you study and about finacial support/sponsorship.

But once you start this discussion, you need to be able to make a decision and secure the job if you want it or say no and let him think about recriting someone who will do it.

One last point, if you say no, were you planning on going straight back to college or getting another job? because if not, you may not get another chance with this employer and you will have to be prepared to work for someone who will be doing the job you were offered and who may not be as good as you could have been.

Anyway, you are learning the first rule of life: there are no easy decisions. Second rule, once you've made a decision, live with it.

JMW

http://www.viscoanalyser.com

eng-tips, Pro bono publico

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

"Si tacuisses philosophus mansisses"
"If you had kept quiet, you would have remained a philosopher"

 

[testy]

I say take the job and start school part time. If in a year this seems like the wrong decision you can quit the job and focus on your studies.

JBEL, I hope you don't take this as an insult but I think you need to re-prioritize. Your family is more important than whatever that overtime will buy. I know it is a requirement in many shops, and it is a tough market, but there forty hour work weeks out there. Work to live, don't live to work.

If you are getting into Engineering for the money or job security you may be disappointed at the outcome.

BTW, I am one of those Technicians that hire the Engineers. As a former machinist (15 years) with an Associates in mechanical design, I do all of the design work and run our shop. I also have 2 UofM Engineering grads who come to me for answers.
It is people like you, with real world experience that my employer looks for. I know I will get a lot of flack for this, but I don't think a degree makes the person. I know of many Engineers who are much smarter than me and have the paper to prove it, yet they barley succeed in finding their own way to work.

I do regret not having the degree on several levels credibility, job portability, example for my kids etc..., but at this point I am not sure the pro's outweigh taking my kids to soccer practice.



Ray Havermahl
Independent Engineering Labs

http://www.ielinc.com

 

[jbel]

testy,

I hear exactly what you are saying. I work with some of those people you are speaking of.

As far as the regrets for not having the degree, your reasons are some of the reasons I am doing what I am doing. I want the job portability, and most of all the example for my kids that it can be done if you set your mind to it. Of course it is a fine line between doing what needs to be done and throwing it all away because I am never home. I think the credibility factor only comes with showing what you can do and not with the piece of paper.

I work the long hours that I work so that my wife does not have to and can be with our kids. In two years my son will be ready to start school and we live in a less than desirable school district. We are looking to step up to a better community before the kids start school. If my wife were to go get a job the money she would make would pale in comparison to what I can make at time and a half, so we have made the decision for me to work the extra hours.

As far as my stating that my situation stinks, I think I may have misrepresented that, but hey that happens on Sunday morning at 11 AM. Let me say that my situation is extremely difficult right now but that I really do love going to school and I am more in it for the knowlege and the chance to learn than anything else.

I had my first go 'round with college about ten years ago, and I majored in drinking and partying. I quit after a year an a half and went into my apprecticeship. So I am back at it now with a vengence, more to prove it to myself that I can do it than anything else.

So its like a quadruple whammy, prove I can do it, get an education, set an example for my kids for when they get to college age, and hopefully improve my job prospects.

And as far as the job prospects, I know ther are tons of great prospects for people with both hands on experience and a degree. I meet with suppliers and customers all the time that would kill for people with both. So, I am not particularly concerned about being able to find work once I graduate. I think that the guys that need to worry about having a job are the ones who have questionable abilities anyway. If I were to get let go today, I know of several companies that need people with my experience and the fact that I am in school makes me that much more employable. Even in the bad job market of the past four years, if you had the skills and know how, there were many companies around here hiring.

 

[PatCouture]

Guys you are really helpful!

Jbel, I completely understand you about making an example for your kids, and Testy is right about "work to live, don't live to work"

But just like Jbel I want to go to school for the knowledge more than the recognition. I love engineering, and I love my job that's why I think that I will take the Job for now, giving me one year to think about going to school, and saving some more money. And then during this year I can take some classes by night and if it goes well, maybe continue. If it goes wrong with the job and the company then the door is still open for going to school full time.

I got to say that all of you help me go through this thinking process and I want to thank you all

Patrick