Do people really get fired for looking at other job options? 11

[bradpa77]

I'm sure we've all heard the story before.

Joe Blow was reading job postings online and the boss found out. Joe was fired for being an unloyal employee.

I've heard several variations of the story, but they all have the same moral: Don't let your boss know you're looking at other career options or else you might get fired.

Does anyone have any real-world stories to validate this rule-of-thumb?

I just find it hard to believe that anyone would fire an employee just because they are interested in other career paths. We all get sick of our jobs from time to time and wonder how green the grass is on the other side. It's only human nature to check out your options in life. How can you label someone 'disloyal' in these instances? It doesn't seem right.

 

[Ashereng]

tmr,

I have only heard of companies doing that. I don't know of anyone working at such a company.

Are bonuses, options, stock grants, etc also posted? Many senior executive make $100,000 salary, and $200,000 bonus. This is very common at the "C" level.


Warpspeed,

Fair point. There are sufficient sources of jealousies in an office environment. Posting salaries is just another possible source of jealousy.


ajack1,

I think you miss the point of comparing a US engineer's salary with someone in India. Cost of living is also different. If it costs me $10,000 to live and I make $20,000 a year, that is different than if it costs me $40,000 to live and I only make $60,000 a year.

When I compare, for most things, I compare with my "neighbours" and "friends".

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[IRstuff]

If you're happy with your raise, what does it matter what someone else got? Maybe he did special "favors" for the boss? Is that worth doing to get the extra money to you?


TTFN

 

[bvanhiel]

By keeping salaries secret in the name of privacy, employers are practicing "information asymmetry". Keeping salaries seceret, is always better for the employer than the employee, as the employer has the knowledge advantage in negotiating. Most companys would prefer that you continue to wallow in your blissful ignorance. Enjoy your sheepdom, and may all of your dictators be benevolent.

-b

 

[IRstuff]

Does knowing that Bill Gates is worth $50 billion make you happier or unhappier?

Is your self-image so poor that it's completely tied to knowing that you got $0.05 more raise that someone else?

TTFN

 

[Ashereng]

My boss tells me I am one of his top 3 guys. I think I am one of the top 3 guyes.

Yup, I would like to see for myself that I am paid like a top 3 guy.

"Do not worry about your problems with mathematics, I assure you mine are far greater."
Albert Einstein
Have you read FAQ731-376 to make the best use of Eng-Tips Forums?

 

[bvanhiel]

I didn't say that the knowledge would make you happier, but I'd still want it. Ignorance is bliss, but knowledge is power. Knowing what others make allows you to negotiate with your eyes open. Would you buy a house without researching what other homes in the neighborhood sold for? Do you walk into a car dealership and slap down your money without finding out what kind of deals others got? Why would you deny yourself that knowledge on what is one of the most expensive decisions you'll ever make?

Bad feelings come about when salary secrets are unexpectedly revealed and they don't match expectations. If they're posted on the bulliten board from day one, then there are no suprises. You see who/what the company values, and if you don't want to emulate them you can go elsewhere.

-b

 

[tmr4791]

I haven't seen any specific bonus information. But during my review, I was told that the bonuses for non-officers varied from "x amount" to "x amount." I'm sure officers get big bonuses. Personally, I like the system. I haven't heard any complaints from anyone. Surprisingly, the salaries and raises don't seem to be exactly uniform. Good performance is definitely rewarded. I like how you can look up anyone and check their utilization, hours worked, weekly income, and ytd income - for any weekly period while they have been an employee. In my opinion, transparency is the way to go. It seems to be good for the company. And it's definitely good for the employee.

 

[Warpspeed]

The only place I have worked where salaries were published was in the public service. You could be a Grade 1 or up to a Grade 6, and then there were increments within grades.

So if Joe Blogs was a Grade 3 on his second increment, everyone knew EXACTLY what Joe took home.

But in private companies, I have never seen anything like that, and hope I never do.

 

[tmr4791]

In my opinion, more information is always better than less information. I don't see how knowing more information about your financial situation is wrong. It empowers you to take action, instead of aimlessly wandering through life ignorant and blind. If it's good for the employee, it's also good for the company. End of story. People who get jealous and have open hatreds, and let it interfere with their job, should probably find another place to work.

 

[keepinitcool]

I think I read that Whole Foods Market does this. Although I don't know if they tell who makes what, but what all the salaries are that were paid in a store.

This type of thing is either good or bad depending on where you are at. If you are at the top end then it is probably bad for you, but if you are at the bottom then having that information could be useful. If you are at the top and everyone know that, you might get more people piling on work for you to do.

 

[ajack1]

Bvanhiel asks “ Do you walk into a car dealership and slap down your money without finding out what kind of deals others got? “

Well no I would not and I doubt many would, I would see what different dealerships would offer and even look at different manufacturers, much as I would if I was buying a machine for the company, or even “buying an employee”.

Many factors come into the negotiation in a slack month I know I will get a better price; if the old model were soon to be replaced by a new one I would expect a large discount. If the company or salesman needed the sale to hit targets I would be in a stronger position, if the car was second hand and had been on the forecourt for a long time again this puts me in a stronger position. I would negotiate the best price I could and try and get any add ons, free servicing, extended warranty that kind of thing. At the end of the day I would either buy or not depending on the deal, but if I was happy with that deal that I struck on that given day under unique circumstances what would I gain knowing that my next door neighbour had paid £3,000 more or less than me?

If two people doing the “same” job get different packages there is usually a very good reason for it, the one earning less would probably feel aggrieved and the one earning more would probably feel smug, the one earning less would probably not work so hard feeling he was worth less and the one earning more would feel he needed to do less as he was more valuable. Neither would gain and both would lose out in the next round of pay talks and of course the company would lose out as well, who wins from this?

I really fail to see what someone else earns matters, be happy or unhappy with what you earn.

 

[GregLocock]

Logically what you say is true. Four decades of behavioural research says you are wrong.

On balance most graduates would prefer to receive the biggest pay rise in their cohort, rather than everyone getting a uniform larger raise.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[bvanhiel]

ajack1,

Knowing the deal my neighbor got on his car would help me evaluate the the quality of my negotiation methods. If I did what I thought was my best getting a good deal, shopping all the local dealerships, and then find out that my neighbor got a better deal because he bought his convertable in Canada in the fall, then maybe next time I'll be a bit smarter.

I certainly wouldn't begrudge my neighbor, be it next door or cubicle, their good fortune. On the contrary, it means that there is room for me to improve.

The profit motive doesn't work if the potential profit is secret. If the guys down the hall doing stress analysis are making 1.5x what I make, then I might consider a career move. If the next position up the ladder is more headaches than $$, then I might reevaluate my current career trajectory.

As far as I'm concerned, more information is always better for the employee. I can't understand willingly keeping myself ignorant.

-b

 

[debodine]

Greg Locock has hit on what I think is one of the central issues in this whole discussion. The way things should be, versus the way they are.

It is quite logical that people should work best in an environment of complete disclosure of all information. It is human nature that they will not.

I would like to be the wise, mature, and logical individual who could know the salaries of all employees of my company and rationally accept my ranking within that organization and agree that my pay is appropriate for my contribution.

But I would be a liar if I claimed I would be completely devoid of envy and that I would not be tempted to disagree with the salary rankings chosen by my employer. It is possible that I would give in to that temptation and become an envious jerk.

Forgive me, Greg, if I step beyond what you intended to say, but I think your point was that leaders of organizations need to make decisions on reality, rather than what they wish "should" be.

Some companies choose to reveal all and try to create a culture where people can overcome their temptation to envy because of the openness. Some companies feel that they cannot take that risk. Which is right and which is wrong? While I am a team leader I am not a manager, and I really don't know which is best. I am not even sure that one method is always correct in every situation.

As a Christian I believe I am expected to work without envy, but as a weak human, I am probably better off in a company that does not disclose such information, as I am now.

debodine

 

[TurbulentFluid]

I agree with bvanhiel. It has nothing to do with my next door neighbour's salary, or his car. My next door neighbour happens NOT to work in my office doing thee same job I am with equal efficiency and earning twice as much. So I don't care about his income. And my personal self-respect and the level of it. How much I am paid is not a measure of my "worth" or "value" as a human being.

These redicilous notions out of the way, if I was an employer and nobody knew how much the others were paid, I'd be in a position to underpay everybody. This is why the system has been developed. As I said: if you earn n and everyone else is earning 4n, you're the sucker - and if the fact about salaries is kept quiet, you'll continue to be one. I was once at a job interview where the interviewer wouldn't divulge the salary I'm supposed to get. He called in an employer and he said he was "satisfied". I declined, and 4 other guys who were there with me accepted the job.
A few months later, when they "dug out" the facts about salaries (thisaway-thattaway in an informal manner), they found out people of a certain citisenship were paid the same amount of money in EUR as they were in the local money (which means they earned approx. 8x less for the same job/same amount of expertise/same working hours/same assigments/same efficiency). Are they suckers? Absolutely.
Sadly they didn't sniff out WHY was the employer secretive... my motto is: "if something's hidden, there's a GOOD reason to hide it".

 

[ScottyUK]

Exactly:

"Only the guilty have something to hide"


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