Does code require identifying wood grades of existing structures?

[jacky89]

I received comments from the Daly City Building's Division in California and one of the comments is "Provide documentations and evidence to verify the lumber grades and species for the original construction (IBC/CBC 2303.1.1). All I am doing is installing a 4x4 skylight that requires cutting one truss member in a small 60yrs old residential house. Every other engineer and plan checkers in other jurisdictions I asked said they've never been asked or asked to provide documentations on the lumber grades of an existing house. Is it even legal for them to request this? I would like to hear your feedback. Thanks.

 

[CELinOttawa]

What a silly situation... We offer lumber identification (not grading) services, but I do not do this work. It is not as simple as looking through a book and matching photos. One of our partners is a Forest Engineering grade from UNB and actually qualifier to do this work. Beyond that we simply apply the lowest grade of lumber available at that time. We have yet to have any problem with any city using this approach; While I don't know the jurisdiction in question, their interpretation of your code/requirement seems unreasonable.

Why not sister the cut members with a new set of rafters, effectively turning the old timber into packing?

Oh, and as for identifying your own lumber, just try to think of what your would say in your defends if you got it wrong: I read a book your honour. Not quite then equivalent of having stayed at the holiday inn, but I think you get my point...

 

[jacky89]

I talked to the structural plan checker who gave these comments. He said I would need to hire a certified grading agency to grade the wood but he doesn't think I will be able to find one that will be willing to come to my house for such a small task. He said the other option would be to cut out a piece of wood from the truss and send it to the lab for testing, which is also unpractical as that would damage the truss, and he will probably make me redo my whole roof. I asked him has anyone been able to put in a 4x4 skylight in a trussed roof system and he said many engineers have attempted a permit before but none has ever gotten a permit from him. Basically he said there's no way for it to be done without tearing out the roof and rebuilding new trusses around the skylight. If I knew this building department was this difficult, I would have never wasted 2+ months on this. I bought the house in May and I still haven't been able to start construction. I'm paying mortgage, property tax, insurance, and utility bills on the new house and still renting another place waiting for the whole permit/construction process to be over with so I can move in. My plan checker friends at all the other jurisdictions around Daly City said the work I'm doing is so simple, I would have gotten an over the counter permit. It sucks thinking that I'm paying such a hefty price for being a good law abiding citizen.

 

[jgailla]

What a jackass. You can't go over his head?

 

[CELinOttawa]

Also the idea that the timber must be specifically graded is dumb. Once you've identified the species, an assumption of the lowest (or even most common) grade is perfectly reasonable so long as you are also upgrading... Which you likely would be.

I say jgailla is right, but I'd propose going political. Your city councilor does not like trouble any more than the next politician. Building Officials are not Gods, and have a very hard time enforcing more strictly than the common practice demands when placed under a microscope of political pressure.

 

[jacky89]

I can't risk going to City Council as that will take too long and risk anger the structural plan checker and I will never ever be able to get a permit. I am doing so little work to my house, I just want my permit so I'm not paying rent and mortgage at the same time and run into a foreclosure as I am already dangerously low on money. I might even have to just cancel my permit now as I am still waiting. I asked the structural plan checker if he still needs to review it because there's obviously no more structural work as I am no longer cutting any truss members. I told him my hardships and that my family will be flying over to visit me next month because I told them I will have a place for them to stay when I first bought the house almost 4 months ago. He told me in anger that it's up to him to determine whether there's any structural work and that he won't look at my resubmittal until he is done with others that are ahead of me and he's angry I'm wasting his time for talking to him. He was talking like I am being super selfish trying to cut in line when all I'm asking is if we can stop wasting both his time and my time since there's no structural work and he doesn't need to review them, which is a very reasonable question. I am about to go bankrupt and my family won't have a place to stay when they come. So yes, Daly City plan checkers pretty much are Gods and completely unsympathetic to hardships of the lowly humans.

I so regret buying a house in Daly City. I have heard tons of horror stories about the building department and warned not to buy in this City but I always thought it was exaggerated until now. sigh...

 

[CELinOttawa]

With sympathy to your situation, I think you have little choice but to go political. The type of small mindedness that this plan checker has now shown (taking you at your word for the gist of the conversation) means they are just as likely to purposefully take longer in reviewing your work out of spite.

In terms of the technical situation, it is an unreasonable request. In terms of client service this is now completely unreasonable as well, but I don't see how anyone here can help you.

Good luck.

 

[frogit22]

I would be talking to my client and recommending changing the skylight configuration so that trusses do not need to be cut. If the trusses are 24" on center, 2 skylights that are 22.5" x 24" or something similar might be just as well.

By the way I do not think it unreasonable for the building official to require an analysis and lumber grades are known to vary widely in truss construction.

 

[jayrod12]

I feel it is unreasonable for them to require it if you are assuming the lowest grade of material in use at the time. If you require a higher grade in order for your calculations to work then yes I agree that professional identification and grading is required.

 

[CELinOttawa]

Jayrod is bang on: It is relatively easy for a qualified individual to identify he species of wood, and as it would all have been graded, an assumption of the lowest available grade available at the time of construction is completely reasonable.

I have yet to see a timber member fail at the calculated strength in testing. Timber is very conservative and robust by nature. True, trusses make the most of the permitted strength, but we are talking about a situation where the client is open to upgrade and so the precise strength is not required.

The building official is not being reasonable, they are being obtuse and pedantic. I suspect the combination is an actionable tort, but it would be an uphill battle and our OP is already in a delicate position.

 

[jacky89]

The existing wood used in these structures are well known by engineers here to be no. 1 or better grade and visual inspection of the truss member shows that it is very hard sturdy wood in excellent condition. But he will not allow assumption of even the most conservative wood. The structural plan checker will not allow assuming the most conservative wood grade. He mandates a certified lumber grading agency to grade the wood or cutout a piece of wood to send to a certified lumber testing laboratory for testing. Both solutions are completely not practicable. But he is the law and we must obey. I don't have money or time to find justice. It is hard to imagine how much power a Building Official can have on the ordinary home owners in the city.

 

[jayrod12]

Is there not someone at their office that does the larger type project plan checking (i.e. commercial)? If so, try calling them, they would have started in the residential review sector and might be able to give you some better direction than this arse-hole