Does one have to be a P.E. to do "Value Engineering" 4

[RARWOOD]

Over the years I have heard some interesting arguments about what falls under the practice of engineering and what does not. I've know non-registered engineers who offered design services. They always argued that they were not offering engineering services, just providing designs. I always believed when an engineer provided a design they were practicing engineering.

Today you here a lot about "Value Engineering". In some cases that service is being offered by registered engineers and in other cases by non-emgimeers. Since it appears in most states that you can be a computer engineer with out being registered maybe the same thing applies to "Value Engineers"

 

[RARWOOD]

I live in Minnesota. I think the answer to my question can be summed up by saying it depends on what state you live.

I posted this thread after reading another post about sealing drawings. I didn't add this to that post because this seems to be more of a seperate topic.

May be I should have expanded my post to include other areas where people are close to the boundary between offering engineering services and not.

What I was looking for were some opinions on what a person can or can not do if they are not registered. Again it can vary from state to state.

I do some "engineering" for people in states where I am not registered. However I would not consider what I do as offering engineering services for several reasons.

First of all I never represent may self as being registered in that state. Seccond of all I never charge a fee for what I do nor do I ever solicit work.

Most of what I do would be preliminary sizing of glulam arches, beams or trusses. I don't provided calculations and I never say that what I propose would work. In general what I would say is that you probably need an 8 3/4" glulam between 30" to 36" deep.

On projects where the company, I work for is supply the glulam material I will occasionally sumbit calculations to an engineer firm in a state that I am not registered in. However the calculations are for approval by the EOR and this is only done when the specification do not require the work to be done by a PE registered in that state.

It is rare, however, where specifications do not require the work to be done by or under the direct supervision of a PE. Also the above rarely comes up because a large percent of projects I work on are in Iowa or Minnesota where I am registered, or in Wisconsin where another engineer I work with is registered.

 

[slien]

The term"value engineering" does not involve engineering. It usually refers to ideas or suggestions made by persons involved with a project that could save money or time.
These suggestions can be made by ANYONE but will be reviewed by the design professionals before implementation or rejection. The term value engineering should be replaced by a more approprite name.

 

[csd72]

slien,

a star for you, short and concise

 

[archeng59]

RARSWC, sizing framing members is considered "engineering" even if it's preliminary design work.

As far as "value engineering" in concerned, that's a generic term for cost-evaluation and cost-cutting, which do not always add "value" and "engineering" makes it sound more important to the owner/client. The VE recommendations are generally made by the estimators and construction management people who want to save the owner $$ and/or pad their own bottom line. I gave the owner/client what they asked for and when the owner sides with the estimator/construction manager, it costs me $$ because I have to redesign something for free. That's my opinion anyway.

 

[slien]

Archeng59, if the suggestions made by the "value engineering" do not give a cost/time benefit they should not be approved. If they are beneficial, at the clients discretion, they can be implemented.
The changes should be reviewed by the architect and structural engineer of record and they sign off.
The changes are an addition to the original design and the professionals should be remunerated for the extra work. The cost/benefit analysis should include for additional design work. The owner/contract documents may provide a reward for these savings.

 

[steve1]

One problem area that I haven't seen mentioned yet is the case where the owner takes the position that he/she should not have to pay for the EOR's review fees since they didn't provide an economical design to start with. Prior to doing any "value engineering" a meeting should be held among the interested parties to define the process to be followed and any expected outcomes.

I live and work in the northeast USA.

 

[archeng59]

slien, I agree with what you say. It is my experience that getting compensated for the extra work is easier said than done. In 15 years of providing consulting structural engineering services, I have yet to be paid to perform design changes caused by VE recommendations. Sometimes, the changes are minimal. Sometimes, the changes are significant. For example, I worked on a multistory cast-in-place concrete project where we met several times during the schematic/design development phase with the CM to discuss formwork. The CM agreed, based on their experience and cost studies, that steel pan forms and skip-joists were the most economical formwork. When the project was finished and the bids came in from various subs, the CM decided that plywood forming would be less expensive based on one subcontractor's bid. The CM requested that the project be redesigned to accommodate standard plywood sheet sizes could be used and eliminate ripping/cutting the 4'x8' panels. We refused to redesign without being compensated. The owner refused to pay extra design fees and said we did not do our due-diligence in exploring the cost-savings of the various formwork. That claim was false, based on the SD/DD discussions and the cost estimates provided by the CM. We redesigned the building after threats of a lawsuit. After it was all said and done, it turns out the subcontractor lowballed the bid, submitted several change orders that the owner paid and the final costs were much more than pan forming would have been. The owner sued the design team for failure to recognize the lowballed bid and for construction delays. He lost but we didn't get paid for our redesign efforts either.

 

[jike]

Make sure to put re-engineering due to VE studies in the contract as extra compensation.

 

[plasgears]

At GE, the best value engineers were very experienced on the shop floor, and we design engineers enjoyed their company. I'm sure they were not PE's or graduate engineers, either.

 

[csd72]

archeng59,

That situation stinks. Just goes to show that we have to cover our ass all the way.

I hope you are not going to do work for them again.

 

[archeng59]

One problem with VE is that the architectural contracts typically have one or more statements about the architect providing the owner with a design that fits within the owner's budget and that the architect (and consultants) will do whatever is needed to make that happen. There are some weasel words that might help get you paid, but it seldom happens in my opinion. You can sue the architect and/or owner to get paid, but our fees are seldom worth the legal fees to collect. The architects and owners know that. Luckily, there is plenty of work to go around so we can refuse to work with the jerks on other projects. Doesn't help our bottom line, tho.

A person doesn't have to be PE to recommend VE items, but a PE must evaluate the effects of the VE on the overall structural system.

 

[prost]

Apparently every state has its own definition of 'engineer.' So let me just talk about Missouri-if you aren't covered by the big umbrella "exemption" (manufacturing exemption, working for someone else exemption, etc.), and you are offering any service you are calling 'engineering', regardless of whether it actually is engineering (for instance, sales people sometimes try to call themselves 'sales engineer'), you cannot do so without having Professional Engineering (PE) license. That's the law. In practice, of course, if no engineer turns you in, you never get caught, you can do whatever you want, call yourself whatever you want. In Missouri, the Board so far can't even do much to you, other than try to publicly humiliate you in publications only a few engineers, surveyors, etc. will read; they can't even fine you (they are working to change that).

BTW--the PE laws were enacted to protect the public, so that customers shouldn't have to be savvy enough, or double check everything an engineer tells them, to trust the work of someone calling herself an 'engineer.' I would think it's unfair to expect the customer would be savvy enough to catch problems. With the degree of specialization these days, I am not sure I would catch things myself--I do a lot of structural analysis, on airplanes, but if someone told me the gusset on that bridge over there was thick enough, I can only assume the engineer who designed it knew what he was doing, and that the gusset was indeed thick enough.

May I ask about the phrase 'design services'? I have seen the phrase, not really familiar with the specifics. Is this any more than just CAD drawing services? If it isn't more, than I would think you wouldn't even need an engineering degree to sell those services. But if it is more, such as supplying estimates of fatigue life, than doesn't the engineering registration law apply?

 

[archeng59]

In my opinion, if calculations to size structural components are not required then a person does not need to be an engineer (PE). I meet alot of people producing house plans and small commercial projects that are not licensed architects, but call themselves "designers". Would rebar and structural steel detailers be considered "designers" with respect to engineering related services?

 

[prost]

archeng59--By 'design' do you mean 'sizing' in addition to producing a pretty picture? That is, are they making basic engineering calculations to make certain the structures don't fail? If so, sounds like you are meeting a lot of people who are breaking the law, at least they would be in Missouri and I am sure, in other states. But of course it would depend--are they working for a company, or are they doing this design themselves, one man shop, that kind of thing? One man shop, no PE, in Missouri that's against the law. If working for a design company, the owner is supposed to a) supervise the design, and b) have a PE license.

Even for projects that typically don't have 'sealed' documents, such as widgets and thingamajigs, products that are manufactured, if you are designed, doing more than drawing, in Missouri you have to have a PE because you are offering your services as an engineer. Of course that doesn't mean the law is enforced, as I said before.

 

[archeng59]

the "designers" I'm talking about are producing architectural plans, elevations and sections for houses or small commercial projects where by state law an architect is not needed. The designers cannot produce foundation plans, framing plans or any structural details. Many municipalities are requiring sealed and signed foundation plans prepared by a licensed structural engineer even for the projects where a licensed architect is not needed.

In Oklahoma, anyone can design things like machine parts and electronics without a PE license, but cannot call themselves an engineer.