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Economic considerations for carbon reduction 4

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JoshPlumSE

Structural
Aug 15, 2008
9,738
This thread is dependent on the assumption that there is a public interest in reducing carbon emissions here in the United States. That may be a big assumption for some. But, assuming it to be true, what is the most efficient way for that to be done?

To me we spend too much time arguing across political aisles about the severity and cause of global warming. I would prefer we spend more time talking about the "economics" associated with the solutions. Maybe we're wasting public funds to support projects that are intended to make us feel better, but are not particularly cost efficient if reducing carbon emissions is our goal.

My initial thoughts on the subject are the following:
1) Solar isn't all that cost effective. Expensive per kilowatt hour produced and government funding / subsidies may be better spent elsewhere.
2) Obviously Hydro power is essentially carbon free (after building the dams). But, there are only so many locations where these can be built.
3) Nuclear power is also essentially carbon free. Perhaps we need to reconsider our country's resistance to building new power plants (and forcing existing ones to decommission).
4) Conservation (i.e. forcing people to reduce power consumption) may be an option as well, but I'm mostly ignoring it. I think there are some great ways to reduce power consumption, but they ultimately put a lot of extra cost on the end consumers.... I now pay something like $10 for a light bulb that used to cost something like ten cents. I may eventually recover the cost over time. But, that assumes my kids don't accidentally break the bulb at some point over the years it takes to offset the initial cost.
5) Coal burning power plants are the worst offenders. I've seen studies suggesting that the quickest and most efficient method to reduce carbon emissions would be to replace coal burning power plants with natural gas powered turbine generators. It's definitely NOT carbon free, but if it is a cost effective step in the right direction then why aren't we doing it?
 
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Hydrogen, as "fuel," is, energetically, a losing proposition, since it takes more energy to get hydrogen into a "fuel" state than you get back upon combustion.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
I agree ... to cost to make a fuel cell probably exceeds the value of the energy stored for most applications but when you need it (like military and space) then you pay for it.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?
 
A lot of that is semantic quibbling. By the same token, fossil fuels are likewise energy carriers, since they require sunlight and chemical reactions to produce, albeit, many eons ago, as opposed to cracking water in the immediate past. Additionally, hydrogen DOES naturally occur in nature, just not on Earth; obviously the Sun fuses hydrogen into helium, and didn't need to crack water for it. Of course, one could argue that the creation of the Sun's hydrogen in the Big Bang likewise was a possible net negative on energy. But, by the same token, the interstellar production of oxygen and carbon required massive amounts of energy and the fusing of hydrogen into helium,, etc., etc., in the first place as well.

The bottom line is that whatever the genesis, the energy cost is reflected in the unit pricing of the "fuels." The cost of oil includes exploration, drilling, pumping, refining, and delivery of that fuel. Likewise, the cost of hydrogen includes the cost water, the cracking process, the generation of the power to do so, and delivery. No one wants to lose money in the hydrogen economy, so all the costs have to be captured and transferred to the end user. Once that process is valid, then hydrogen is a fuel.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
Yeah, perhaps more accurate to say "not an energy source". However you state it the challenges are significant. Here is another old paper. Haven't read if thru recently, but if I recall correctly even the fuel cell guys aren't too excited.



The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

Edit: Corrected Link
 
 https://files.engineering.com/getfile.aspx?folder=99462f0a-3eda-46a3-9b42-be2a643ce2a5&file=b&e.pdf
IR it is you who is quibbling and it gets tiresome, sometimes. Is hydrogen a "fuel"? Sure, but not in any sense that is relevant to this discussion. It is not, and never will be, a source of energy for our society. This is what confuses people and you are contributing to this confusion, not to clarity. Fusion is a completely separate subject. It would be nice if you would take a moment to think about a topic before instantly replying with the first contrarian thought that pops into your head. You have a lot of knowledge to contribute here, but you seem to forget that there are thousands of people who read this site. It is not a private conversation between you and couple of others.
 
I do understand, and I think it confuses the non-technical people when we insist, pedantically, to call hydrogen a "non-fuel" because the average person sees it otherwise and sees it being used as fuel. For them, the main issues are the carbon footprint and the cost, not that it's not a "fuel."

It would be far more useful to detail and compare the precise carbon footprint of hydrogen; is it better or worse than petroleum? Because of cheap natural gas, the carbon footprint of hydrogen has gotten better.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert! faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list
 
IDS -

One quick clarification. I didn't mean "sin tax" in any negative sense. It's just a term used to discourage certain unsavory behavior. Why have sin taxes on alcohol or tobacco? Well, aren't there other societal costs associated with them that are difficult to quantify? Increased health care expenses for both. Same concept for other "sin taxes" that might be proposed. Sugary drinks, pornography, et cetera. Some of these costs are easy to quantify, some are not. However, they're all associated with an attempt to discourage behavior that causes some ills in our society (or are perceived to cause ills).


One a different note, I would very much prefer for the cost of ones actions to be more closely associated with those actions themselves. The money spent on roads should entire come from gasoline taxes or car taxes or such. The money spent on government subsidies for clean power should entirely come from taxes on the less clean sources of power. I think that's essentially what you were saying before which I very much agree with.
 
I don't know what the official technical definition of a fuel is, but to me it means any substance that contains stored energy that can be extracted for some useful purpose. On that basis hydrogen is clearly a fuel.

On the other hand, it is reasonable to point out that there is a difference between natural fuels that can be extracted at comparatively low cost, such as coal, or natural gas, or wood, or rainfall stored at high altitude, and manufactured fuels, such as hydrogen, or batteries, or ethanol, or pumped water stored at high altitude. All of the latter have costs which should be taken into account, and depending on the source of the energy used to create them, may have significant associated GHG emissions.

Doug Jenkins
Interactive Design Services
 
The on-board reformation of hydrocarbons to produce hydrogen to feed fuelcells has been studied and abandoned for good reasons. PEM fuelcells need absolutely pure hydrogen with a total of CO plus CO2 lower than 10 ppm. Even argon in the feed gas requires anode tailgas venting to avoid its accumulation. An onboard reformer is dead in the water in terms of cost, efficiency and the need for purification.

People continue to work on so-called direct methanol fuelcells, but they're not a thing for vehicles yet. Methanol is one of the easiest things to reform onboard as it falls back apart to CO and H2 fairly easily- but then you have to water gas shift the CO + H2O back to CO2 + H2, and then the purification etc. Not worth the bother.

Solid oxide fuelcells might be an option for large vehicles (ships being one example), but they're high temperature devices best suited when you need both power and heat, i.e. stationary applications. They're not sufficiently higher in efficiency to merit the replacement of large diesels which are already quite efficient.

Hydrogen fuelcells for cars and small trucks sound appealing until you get into the details. If you're starting with either methane or electricity, about 70% conversion of methane LHV or electrical joules into hydrogen LHV is the best you're going to do. Storage at high pressure is about 90% efficient, i.e. eating about 10% of the energy in the hydrogen you've produced. Then the onboard fuelcell is about 50% efficient- you might stretch that to 60% but not without a fair bit of cost. That's 37% from energy source to wheels at best, forgetting about distribution losses. Battery EVs do quite a bit better than that- battery plus charger is about 90%, and the motor/inverter too are around 90%, so about 81% from energy source to wheels. Both would be subject to distribution losses etc. which you'd have to figure in if you were going to compare against gasoline/diesel which are, round numbers, about 80% efficient from well to tank. So the fuelcell vehicle's value proposition becomes one of roughly 2.4x as much energy (and hence 2.4x as much operating cost) to move a similar car the same distance, all in return for faster refuelling. Doesn't make sense to me, not even if electricity were to suddenly become very cheap- because we haven't talked about the refuelling infrastructure, its cost, and how it would be paid for (i.e you'd be charged for it at the pump). Hydrogen in California is $15 USD/kg retail, and that's only 1/3 renewable right now (2/3 is cheaper fossil-sourced hydrogen). That will take a Toyota Mirai about 320 miles. By the way, the Mirai is actually 200 pounds heavier than the Tesla Model 3 long range version which has a range of about the same- 312 EPA miles on a charge.
 
Molten Metal -

I'd love to get some better understanding of the different types of fuel cells. I did a quick lookup on wikipedia, so I'm not exactly an expert. But, it sounds like you're focused mainly on small / portable fuel cells of type that could be used for cars. Is that correct?

There are other types of fuel cells that work fairly efficiently for small power needs (i.e. less than a MegaWatt). I did a bit of structural engineering work for a company that specializes in this a number of year ago.


Now, I don't believe these are very scale-able for large energy needs. But, there appears to be a market niche for them. Customers who want their own power supply and don't want to rely completely on the grid. Maybe manufacturing, hospitals, utilities, or such.
 
The high temperature units are either molten carbonate or solid oxide type fuelcells. They in a sense are "cheating", because they do thermal reformation of the feed fuel onboard. They are useful as mentioned in my post for stationary or large (think ships) mobile applications especially where the desire is combined heat and power. They're about as efficient as CCGT but available at lower scale.

For smaller transport applications, the low temperature PEM fuelcell is the only game in town. And there's good reason there are already about 4,000,000 battery EVs on the world's roads and only about 10,000 fuelcell cars.
 
To clarify a bit: the high temperature fuelcells use both H2 and CO electrochemically- they do not have a device which converts all the energy in the feed fuel to energy in hydrogen first, thereby avoiding both the energetic and purification losses that the PEM fuelcell endures if it is fed hydrogen derived from hydrocarbons.
 
The majority of posts here seem to refer to the USA and perhaps thats understandable.. Moltenmetal makes reference to a possible $150 per tonne Carbon tax. Is there a carbon tax in place anywhere in the USA?? If so, how much and how socially accepted is it ?? Here in Alberta we have a $25 per tonne tax, scheduled to go up every year in the near future. It shows very clearly on your utility bill, its built into your gasoline / diesel costs at the pump ( but its not so blatant there) and every thing that is delivered by truck or rail, Im sure the extra costs are passed onto the consumer. Personally I resent the entire concept. Its just another tax grab with another level of bureaucracy built in. Is the average USA resident prepared for the increased cost of living that this tax carries with it??
 
Given that many/most/the majority of informed experts on the subject of global warming link carbon emmissions with the problem i would suggest that its not a matter of whether or not we can afford the extra cost of the tax but whether or not we can afford not to do something about carbon emmissions.

I would suggest that we may well find out that $25,50 or $150 /tonne was way under price in the long term.

Regards
Ashtree
"Any water can be made potable if you filter it through enough money"
 
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