Electrical Engineering being hit hard by the economic downturn 5

[Comcokid]

Every engineering discipline is being affected by the present economic conditions. But I was somewhat surprised by the following article posted, of all things, on a website that more centric on scientific articles and issues.

http://www.physorg.com/news166208581.html

The information originates with the IEEE - perhaps the main organization for engineers working in all types of electrical and electronic engineering. The article indicates that unemployment among EE is much higher than other engineering and professional areas.

I would like to see from this post a discussion about job/unemployment trends from other electrical, or other types of engineers who's own jobs are closely tied to electrical/electronics companies or industries.

 

[MikeHalloran]

Funny the article failed to mention the IEEE's complicity in the fabled 'engineer shortage', which has apparently evaporated overnight.

The IEEE, and its analogs, are not really organizations for engineers; their mission has more to do with ensuring an oversupply of engineers, so as to keep the price down. Their real customers are _employers_of_ engineers.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[BJC]

MikeHalloran

Squarly hit the nail with that one.
The purpsoe of the IEEE was ( still is I tink ) was to keep college professors employed ( that's why english used to be a second language in many engineering classes ) and to provide cheap engineers for industry.

The people who rant the IEEE were always achedemics or management.

 

[msquared48]

Regardless, I still see a lot of ads for EE's, but very few for Civils or Structurals... EE's are not being hit as hard from my perspective.

The most ads I see are for the Merdical profession.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[ScottyUK]

Electronics manufacturing is taking a battering for sure.

The heavy electrical industries like generation, transmission, distribution are riding the storm fairly well because or the high retirement rate and the generation gap of guys between 30 and about 45 who are virtually missing from the industry, in the UK at least (part of Thatcher's legacy: I hope she burns for all eternity). Experienced power engineers are commanding a premium from employers and are being actively pursued by headhunters even at this point in the economic troubles.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[ajack1]

I take it you are not old enough to remember what a mess the country was in prior to Maggie then Scotty?

She was the saviour of this country, unfortunately the automotive industry is still feeling the effects of the lunatic union leaders from around the same period in time. I only wish there was another Maggie to clear up the mess we are currently in.

 

[hokie66]

Your cricket team is in disarray, and you guys waste your time arguing about Dame Maggie.

 

[ScottyUK]

Oh yeah, I remember the mess it was in. I grew up through it. One of the reasons I'm not a huge fan of unions is the mess they made of the country when they had too much power in the sixties and seventies. Without the unions Thatcher would never have risen to power in the first place so I agree that they are equally to blame. Unfortunately her method of curing the problem with the unions was akin to a doctor curing a patient of flu by shooting them in the head.

Surrendering control of key national infrastructure such as the electrical, water and gas utilities to the private control of foreign companies was an act of absolute folly and is one of the main reasons why there is no long-term energy policy and why there has been so little investment in our utilties for the past 20 years. Shareholders want short and medium profit, not to invest for the next forty or fifty years. I'm from the utility industry: I see the quality of the plants built by the CEGB and compare them to the private venture plants. The CEGB sites will still be there when the newer ones have dropped to bits. I see the quality of the engineering done 30 years ago and it is far far better than what we are allowed to do today. Everything is built down to a price, not up to a standard. That's more of Thatcher's legacy.

The likes of British Leyland and British Shipbuilders desperately needed to change but the Thatcher government did fail to force through the positive changes and modernisation needed to help those companies compete internationally and it did take the easy option which was to let those companies fold rather than take the hard option which would have kept the industries alive by breaking the union stranglehold and modernising.


Hokie,

.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[msquared48]

I assume you guys are speaking of Maggie Smith?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[lansford]

MikeHallorin and BJC
I could not agree with you more!
I guess I am part of the problem because I have been paying my IEEE dues for a long time and wodering why I continue!
I guess becaue I signed up in college.
JIM

 

[cranky108]

The shortage of experenced power engineers also includes the states. However we still haven't enough schools to teach the number of power engineers needed.

Presently we are seeing other electrical engineers entering into this industry. They don't do bad, but they don't have power background.

 

[ScottyUK]

Are power engineers on the list of 'critical skills' or whatever the US calls it who get priority at the immigration desk? I hope not, because we need all ours in Europe!


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[cranky108]

I don't know about being consitered critical skills. But I do know there are open positions at several companies.

On the other hand, there would have to be a good reason to make such a move. And if there is such a shortage there they should be doing something to keep you (Like throwing money your way). So what reason would someone have to move unless they are just unhappy there.

 

[ScottyUK]

"So what reason would someone have to move unless they are just unhappy there."

Well, the UK is fast becoming a third world economy. I don't see it getting any better any time: to be honest I'd ship out to either Canada or NZ tomorrow. Maybe Oz if the other options didn't work out. My wife doesn't want to go though, which complicates things a little.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[cranky108]

Not that I live in the warmest place in the world, but NZ and Canada sound so cold.
Besides my wife would not want to move to those places either.

I had look for a new place a couple of years ago, but I saw very few outside the US. Maybe people don't think we would want to leave.

I think the worst thing about living in another country is the driving is different.

 

[mgtrp]

Having worked as an electrical utility engineer in both Canada and New Zealand, I can highly recommend both of them. NZ probably has a better climate than the UK & Ireland if you're worried about the cold, but Canada pays a lot better. Both have a wonderful outdoor-orientated life-style, take your pick between rugby and ice hockey.

 

[cabraham]

<quote> Funny the article failed to mention the IEEE's complicity in the fabled 'engineer shortage', which has apparently evaporated overnight.The IEEE, and its analogs, are not really organizations for engineers; their mission has more to do with ensuring an oversupply of engineers, so as to keep the price down. Their real customers are _employers_of_ engineers. Mike HalloranPembroke Pines, FL, USA <end quote>

I've heard that before & it may be valid. IEEE seems to feel beholden to employers since they employ engineers. Also, by assuring high EE college enrollment, it keeps the supply of EE's high which holds the salaries down.

In the 1980's I worked at an aerospace firm in Baltimore. One of my colleagues was a contract engr named Irwin Feerst, who passed on around 2001. Over the table at lunch, Irwin & I discussed everything from IEEE, H1B visas, Soviet escalation in Afghanistan, etc. Irwin had some strong beliefs on the "engineering shortage" issue, which he insisted was an industry fabrication.

Irwin headed a group called "Committee For Concerned EE's", in Massapequ**, NY (I can't remember the name of the city). I read his newsletters. He was articulate & smart, but I don't entirely believe the position he held.

There has always been since day 1, an overabundance of EE's, and at the same time, a shortage of EE's. A company who needs a very specialized EE, such as RF, microwave, etc. will struggle to find one. Also, employers in the rust belt, or other parts of the country may have trouble attracting an EE, since candidates prefer the south & west.

Depending on the needs of the company, & location, the pool of available candidates can be small, large, or in between. I do believe, however, that corporations have a vested interest in declaring an "engineering shortage" 24/7/365. But what if the supply of EE's was limited? If there were fewer EE's would that be good for us?

I don't know. Sure, our pay would increase. The big companies could afford to pay it, but the small companies may not be. Many jobs which now exist may be gone. As far as too many EE's go, who should exit the EE field and go elsewhere? It's easy to say that there are too many, but who should go?

Things are not bad. We must keep our skills sharp & up to date. There are opportunities but they are not as abundent as before. The 70's, 80's, & 90's were a pipe dream in the USA. If I wanted an upscale job with an upscale company, I had to - *show up for the interview*.

Not any more. It is tougher, but still, it's not that bad. Keep the faith. Get more education. Study and improve. Most employers would rather hire their own citizens. Less hassle.

Claude

 

[DRC1]

ScottyUK - You mention that turning over infrstructure to foriegn private firms was a mistale. Could you expound upon that? Here in the states, government, as well as a work starved industry is pushing hard for what we call Public Private Partnerships where governments seek prive ivestors to build large infrastructure and then secure a revenue stream, such as tolls for bridges. I am not a big fan, but since this is new I do not have a lot of data over here. It sounds similar to what you described over on your side of the pond. Also who is CEGB?
Thanks a Lot!

 

[ScottyUK]

Hi DRC,

The CEGB was the Central Electricity Generating Board., which was pre-dated by the British Electricty Authority. The history goes back to the period immediately after the war when a number of key indsutries were nationalised. In the decades that followed, the nationalised industry developed the UK's transmission system to a very high standard of reliability and technical excellence and did some groundbreaking research, but also became bloated and dominated by powerful unions.

Why do I think it was a mistake to privatise the industry? Primarily because the privatisation was not done in the national interest, it was done because of Thatcher's personal vendetta with the unions which grew out of the 1984 miner's strike. The CEGB was a prime target because between the coal industry and the CEGB they effectively controlled the nation's power supply. Thatcher rightly believed that situation placed an unacceptable amount of power in the hands of the unions so rather than tackle the unions directly she embarked upon a massive de-nationalisation programme. It was asset-stripping on a national scale, halting major investment in generation for nearly a decade and in transmission for nearly two decades, closing the research laboratories and laying of thousands of staff across the organisations. An organisation focussed on the long term operation of a power generation, transmission and distribution system was replaced by lots of small companies whose focus was short term profit for shareholders. It was not a happy time for consumers, and two decades later the promised benefits of 'competition' among electricity suppliers - perhaps 'cartel' was what they really meant - have still not appeared.

There has not been an energy policy worthy of the name in this country for 20 years: the CCGT stations which popped up like mushrooms during the first few years of this century have all but used up the natural gas from the North Sea, and the coal mining industry has all but gone. We are reliant on imported energy from Russia and points further east, while we sit above coal resources which will last another 300 years. The nuclear engineering expertise in this country has retired in old age leaving a hole in the UK skill base. There is generation gap in the industry because of the freeze on recruitment, meaning the people my age will soon be the 'old men' of the industry before we see our 50th birthdays: the amount of expertise which has been lost to the industry is incredible. Our world-leading manufacturers such as GEC, Parsons, Bonar Long, Ferranti and Peebles to name a few have all closed or are shadows of what they once were because of the lack of investment in the system which took away a huge part of their customer base.

In some ways the CEGB was too good: the plants they designed for a 25 year life are still in service as they approach fifty, testament to the quality specified by the CEGB engineers and to the quality of the companies who built them.


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[DRC1]

Scotty - Thanks for the great information. Here our powersupply and transmission has been traditionally run by regulated utilities. In an effort to foster more competition on pricing, the generation was semi privatized. In some aspects it worked older plants were modernized and as demand increased so did pricing. Transmission lagged behind until a major blackout about 5 years ago. Then there was a big rush to upgrade in our area from a 115kV line to 345. A lot of the transmission structures are over 40 years old with some approching 70. There was a big program until the credit markets feel apart. Now it is mostly on hold.
I was interested more from the aspect of roads and bridges, as we have a big push to privatize these on the promise they will bring in projects cheaper with better maintance. Most of the ventures are with foriegn companies. I have been worried about the situation you describe, but so far I think I am in a small minority. It is nice to have an actual example to point to. This will really help. Thank you.