Electronic PE Sealing 1

[JAE]

Just taking a poll to see what others do out there in the US for your engineering sealing of plans.

In years past, when drafting was done on paper/linen/mylar, the engineers were directed by state laws to hand seal (or sometimes emboss) and hand sign and date each drawing.

We then retained possession of the drawings and only blueprints/blueline copies were created which also had the seal/signature on them. It was essentially impossible to change the blueprints/bluelines.

As Cad rolled in, the typical approach was to print out mylars (initially) of plans and still hand seal/sign as before.

Then the electrostatic printers came out where large sheets could be printed out on paper with black ink. We then had the task of wet sealing/signing numerous copies of plans.

Today, many times consultants attempt to share there plans with the team and forward them to their client/architect in pdf form. Applying a PE seal to cad drawings is not really a problem.

But many states insist that to "sign" the drawings you must use an electronic revision approval system (ERA). This is some kind of encrypted software that is embeds the signature within the file at the programmatic level such that any changes in the document will result in the document not printing, or exploding (my joke).

So - finally - my question:

I've been tempted in the past to simply scan and apply my seal/signature into the cad drawing file - and then create pdf's from that - and only send the pdf's to the client. But technically, someone could "tamper" with the pdf somehow and change a detail with my seal remaining on it. But if we printed out the full sized sheets, signed and sealed the drawings by hand, then scanned them in to pdf documents you'd end up with the same dang thing.

What are you out there doing with sealing and signing plans?

The encryption software is somewhat expensive in that we understand that each engineer in the office that signs/seals plans has to have an individual key. Is that right? Or can the whole office have one key?

 

[Ron]

JAE..if you create the pdf with Adobe's Acrobat full version, you can encrypt to comply with many state laws. The algorithm is such that if the file is changed, the validation goes away. The only problem with this is that you must send the encryption validation file to each recipient.

The 3rd party signature/seal processes are rather expensive.

I currently use the Adobe signature system and send the encryption validation file to each recipient.

Ron

 

[msquared48]

I still do it by hand - signing and sealing that is. I am not automated.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I only electronic seal when I know and trust my client - I usually put "Preliminary" note of some sort. Then follow up with a wet seal.

Many Building Officials allow this when a job is in a push. I send them direct to the BO and follow up. Seems to work OK.

The only time I had a seal stolen was someone who simply copied it from a drawing and taped it to his own and then re-copied. Many years when things were quite lax.

I often use a "watermark" of some sort through the seal - usually the date or my name or clients name. It is not too easy to replicate that way.

 

[DTGT2002]

I sign and seal an original and scan to pdf. This loses the magic ability to turn vector graphics back into cad formats and prevents true scale dimensioning of plans - though aodobe will still allow a scale to be set and dimensioning.

Software exists to "unsecure" pdf's and while that would be the equivalent of someone altering my plans, making it harder to capture useful digital info is my goal.

That said, a typical drawing set for me might be six or eight drawings, not so much 30+ for your typical EOR.

I have seen folks sned out their signature in an unsecured pdf and even word form as well as one of two electronic seal copies, just floating around in the file.

Perhaps most folks would not know what to do with such a thing, but it could be dnagerous to the wrong person.



I am interested to see where this goes.


Daniel

 

[vandede427]

90% of the drawings we issue are in pdf form. There may be software out there to "rip" the seal off the pdf, but I'm not spending the extra time/money to encrypt it. I believe that most people in the construction world are honest; just a rogue few who are trying to make a few quick pennies on ID theft.

And that's what it really is; ID theft. I'm not going to stop paying for stuff online just b/c of a small threat to my cc number.

If I email out dwgs with my electronic seal/sig on them, it's only to architects; but not to clients who aren't architects. I trust arch's to respect the idea of professional licensure

Anybody else who wants a dwg file gets it without even a title block. Not only will I not give out my seal/sig electronically, but I don't want them having my electronic company logo or my client's electronic logo.

 

[JLNJ]

We still do mostly hand signing. Some building departments will accept electronic seals with a hand signed or embossed cover sheet if they are bound together.

If someone really wants to steal my seal and my signiture they certainly can find the technology to do it. Heck, you can probably get a rubber stamp shop to make up a seal for a few bucks that says anything on it you want. Who actually cross checks registration numbers with actual people with actualy signitures anyway?

 

[JAE]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting to see all the various ways and means.

I'm not sure the engineering laws about seals are concerned with people ripping off my seal as they are in having a fail-safe way to ensure that I can't have an excuse to claim that the drawing that has my seal was tampered with after the fact.

In other words there are two basic types of mis-uses in the seal:

Type 1 -
Someone takes my seal and uses it on a project without me knowing about it - submits it to a city for permit - and thus basically poses as another engineer (me) to get a project built without paying full price for the engineering

Type 2 -
I sign and seal a set of plans and perhaps make a mistake on the design. Something bad happens and in the course of afixing blame on me I resort to the claim that the drawing was altered AFTER I sealed it and I thus cannot be held responsible for the structural failure.

I think type 2 is what they are most concerned with and therefore if I make a drawing with a pdf - and my seal is on it - there are ways to copy/alter/paste the drawing back into a pdf with my seal still on it.

 

[msquared48]

Type 3:

An over cost conscious contractor cuts and pastes my original signed stamp to a new drawing for a different project, whites out the date and redates it, then makes a copy and submits it for permit.

The local BO caught it and called me. The expiration date the contractor chose was wrong (plus the white-out was evident). The contractor was reprimanded by the state board.

This is why I only will use original ink stamped and signed drawings. Original embossed work even better.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[TXStructural]

States set the rules for sealing. Texas requires that the seal be tamper proof, just like a wet seal. They allow the engineer to scan a signed & dated seal for a specific job, give access to the seal only to the CAD operator for the one job, and the PDF needs to be secured. We have used the PDF creation option to password restrict cut & paste.

I know an engineer whose seal was stolen from a project and was transferred to a different design on the same project, which subsequently failed. Don't just throw up your hands and say "oh, well, I can't stop a crook."

 

[CTW]

Mike,
The contractor was only reprimanded? What did he get, a fine? He should have lost is license.

 

[paddingtongreen]

I think that we cannot control copies of our seals these days, even when I ink stamped originals, I wanted to include the revision at the time, I thought we should add a new stamp, or sign-off for each revision.

The record copies were always embossed prints.

Michael.
Timing has a lot to do with the outcome of a rain dance.

 

[JAE]

Well, we could cut our little finger and apply some blood to each sheet - DNA verification should definitely verify whether I did the work or not don't you think?

 

[cvg]

fact is, the same types of things were done in the "olden days" with mylars and blue lines - both legally and illegaly. It is very easy to take a blue line or mylar, run it through the Diazo machine and get a duplicate mylar. A good drafter could very easily with an exacto knife, cut out any part of the drawing and replace with something different. Or alternatively cut out the entire drawing and replace with an altered drawing in the title block. Erasers and eradicater could be used to wipe out and then re-draft whatever you want. Sticky backs were used to apply everything from construction notes, to property lines to north arrows and title blocks. Cut and paste was prevalent. Everything could be layed up on paper, run through the machine and instant mylar (except the wet stamp wasn't wet anymore). Since most drawing quality was a lot worse back then, and everything was hand lettered, nobody would know.

 

[msquared48]

CTW:

Yep, only a letter of reprimand. That burned me.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask