electronic signatures on stamped drawings 4

[mwilson64]

The company that i work for has long used electronic seals on our drawings, which are physically signed by the engineer once the drawing has been plotted. I believe that this has become quite common. we are considering using electronic signatures, imported as an image, on the drawings as well. what concerns or drawbacks, if any, are associated with this practice? (Our procedure only allows access to the signatures through a password by the EOR.)

Thanks,
mwilson64

 

[dtn6770]

When I purchased my PE seals I had the option of getting a electronic jpg file, but didn't. I know little more than what you described and don't like the idea of some creative soul obsconding with my "seals" since I'm completely responsible for them and their use.

I may be paranoid and not understand whatever security measures may exist.

 

[CJJS]

It depends on the state in which you are sealing. Ohio, for example does not permit scanned images of signatures (although everyone does it and inspectors do not seem to care). The concern with doing this is that someone could alter the document and the seal would remain. For example, you place your scanned image and seal on an Autocad drawing. If you email the file, and it is able to be edited by someone else, they could alter your design and the seal/signature will remain.
Some states allow a true digital signature, which is encrypted. This is different thatn a scanned image of your seal and signature. It is linked to the document so that if someone were to try to alter the original sealed document, the signature/seal will disappear.

 

[LHA]

I use both. People often ask "What if...", then go into a scenario described by CJSchwartz. My response: if you commit a felony and embezzle my e-seal (and/or e-signature), then use it to commit a second felony to forge a document, I am not liable for your feloneous acts. It would be no different than if you stole my stamp (it is in my desk, should it be in a safe-deposit box? Can my wife and son know the combo?), and let's be honest, how hard would it be to forge my chicken-scratch, barely-legible signature? I'll keep sealing what I did, and if something I did not do turns up with my seal and signature forged on it, I will swear, under oath that I did not do it. ...thank you Steve, your witness...

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[dtn6770]

Come to think of it, there really aren't any checks and balances even for traditional seals. Someone who has seen my seal (or certificate) can jot down my license number and place an on-line order with my name. It doesn't even have to be an on-line order. Would it really be that simple?

I just know the laws in the state I'm licensed have verbiage to the effect of "control of" and "responsible for", more bark than bite when it comes down to it.

 

[zuccus]

This is no different then the situation I got invloved in when I was very young. I changed cities to chase my now wife and was desperate for a job. Found one with a company who was still doing there civil designs with hand drafting and a consulting engineer who worked offsite would stamp the drawings.

One week into the job, my boss walks in and asks me to move a foundation wall out two feet. I grab the drawing go back to my table and notice that there is a stamp on it.

The only reason why I knew this was wrong was because my dad is a PE. Go back to my boss and tell him I can't change it because it is already sealed. He tells me to do it anyways because he doesn't want to repay the engineer. Well after some words back and forth I walked out and told him don't bother mailing me my check, I want nothing to do with this company.

Called the engineer at home that night and went over to his house to tell him what was going on. He had a feeling something like that was happening and he showed me all of the copies of his sets. I don't know what happened in the long run.

Moral of the story is it was happening before the e-signature technology was around. Make sure you have all your ducks in a row.

Zuccus

 

[PatBethea]

dtn6770,

FWIW - I had to supply the "stamp company" a copy of my license when I ordered my stamp.

 

[TDAA]

A star to LHA for the common sense.

My former company used an AutoCAD stamp for drawings, but signed by hand. I think this was a good approach. It gave pause to look at the drawing one last time before it was sealed. I think if you are very thorough with your review, then signing via the computer may not be so bad. Just be sure the security is up to speed, and that it is acceptable to the localities where you are sending drawings, and always check when you go to do this for a new market.

 

[dtn6770]

PatBethea,

Thanks for that feedback. Unless the outfit I got my seals from did some behind the scenes checking with the states in question, they took me at face value. Interesting.

 

[mwilson64]

Thank you all for your replies. They have all been insightful and very helpful. Your input will certainly aid in our decision making.

Thanks again,
mwilson

 

[JStephen]

Some states require a certain seal vender; otherwise, I haven't seen much sign that the stamp companies try to check up on this.

 

[csd72]

If you work at a big company I wouldnt do it.

One company I worked at, the project managers were often getting huge pressure from the clients, so they would access our files and print of drawings to give to them.

We would then have them coming back to us saying that the client found this and that error in our drawings.

Our only defence was:

'Is my signature on the drawing?'

'no'

'then I am not taking responsibility for it.'

This was in the UK but I can see it happening anywhere.

 

[LHA]

csd72:

I work for an ENG top 300 firm, over 350 employees. In the US, those PM's would have been guilty of forgery, and that is a felony. The person whose signature was stolen would have been the victim of a felony; as such, would have been legally obligated to testify in the trial. I know I will gladly testify, should that ever happen to me.

US law as I recall from History classes, was largelyu based on English law, so I have to assume the situation was the same in UK. What was the outcome after you had those PM's arrested, and you testified against them???

Engineering is the practice of the art of science - Steve

 

[JamesBarlow]

Maybe I'm missing something but what's the big deal about sealing each drawing.

I have never worked on a project were I was e-mailed official drawings. I will get them sent to me for reference to show to everyone but the official version is always embosed and then overnighted to me.

 

[csd72]

LHA,

You would have to prove that they stole your drawing - twice! Once to absolve yourseldf and once to prosecute the PM. Best to avoid anything that could involve a court case.

Anyhow, the PM did not commit forgery as there was no signature on the drawing, if there was...(refer above).

 

[l3city]

don't do it...keep signing drawings by hand. what's the BIG difference? There is people specializing in signature authentication. Hence, if some dumby used and signed your stamp, you will be able to prove that someone else signed the drawings.
regards

 

[RossABQ]

I3city, you wouldn't ask this if you were sittingin front of a stack of 125 drawings that you needed to wet-seal (after all the reviews, etc). The ink can transfer onto the back of the previous drawings and smudge. It is just tedious.

One pitfall is that if the seal image is inserted into the drawings, then they are batch-plotted, the image remains in the file. You then really ought to go back and remove it before turnover to the client.

I recently got back "shop drawings" for a ductwork system where the contractor simply copied my sealed drawings and hand-wrote annotations on it, and submitted it back to us with my seal intact, over their title block! I cited the state laws governing seals in my rejection of their "shop drawings".

 

[l3city]

RossABQ
"The ink can transfer onto the back of the previous drawings and smudge.."

solution: don't put your drawings one above the other when stamping.
Regards

 

[RossABQ]

"solution: don't put your drawings one above the other when stamping."

Sounds simple, but not for 100+ drawings -- I wasn't exaggerating. Some clients' designated seal area is 6" off the margin. Even with a conference room table it is not practical. We used to put a Post-It over the inked seal.

 

[blueoak]

I always thought it was the signature that really mattered. I think the thought that the stamp and inkpad is the height of technology is humourous. Should drawings be on vellum (calfskin) and India Ink? Plus printed seals are actually legible.

I only miss when changes were drawn by hand on the AS-builts. It was a heck of a lot easier finding changes.