Asked to stamp something I've never worked on or even know about 8

[psmpsm]

I am a licensed PE who recently joined a company with the idea that my PE would be used for stamping some projects. I was alright with that assuming the projects were something I worked on and oversaw and something that was in my expertise.

Recently, I was asked to review and stamp some test reports for a different division dealing with physical parts. I know nothing about physical parts and don't feel comfortable taking on that liability even if I was able to understand it on short notice.

My company is saying they will lose business if they don't have someone stamp these reports.

What do I do? My expertise is in power systems analysis, they are asking me to stamp something regarding connector test reports, something I've never worked on or know anything about. If I say no, what will happen to me?

 

[IRstuff]

I don't know how the risk is assumed for PEs, but for doctors, even with insurance, there is a personal liability, i.e., the insurance covers personal liability up to a point, but if the judgement is beyond the insurance limits, they come after your personal assets.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[CWB1]

Potentially bad assumption, but I would ass-u-me the customer is requesting the stamped report bc they are required to use certified parts by a regulating agency/AHJ.

He claims that assuming the work was where I was licensed, I should review the project, get up to speed with the standards, and make myself an expert so that I can stamp it. He said that I shouldn't say "no" to my employer because I am an electrical engineer and as long as the subject is electrical engineering I can make myself familiar with it and stamp it. He says that because I don't have the experience with it doesn't mean I can use that as an excuse to not learn it and stamp it

Going back to undergrad engineering ethics 101, an engineer cannot make themself an expert nor even deem themself fully competent bc we simply do not know what we do not know, and most modern engineering knowledge isnt in the public domain. The established procedure for becoming competent is to work under an expert in a focused niche for several years. Until then I wouldn't dare be the senior engineer signing, stamping, or even internally releasing anything. The very first thing attorneys consider (and often attack) in any lawsuit or trial is your competence.

 

[psmpsm]

"Going back to undergrad engineering ethics 101, an engineer cannot make themself an expert nor even deem themself fully competent bc we simply do not know what we do not know, and most modern engineering knowledge isnt in the public domain. The established procedure for becoming competent is to work under an expert in a focused niche for several years. Until then I wouldn't dare be the senior engineer signing, stamping, or even internally releasing anything. The very first thing attorneys consider (and often attack) in any lawsuit or trial is your competence."

This makes a lot of sense. I think this is going to be my response to "well you can read up on it and make yourself comfortable with the material and then be an expert".

Is there anywhere in the code of ethics that says working under an expert for a couple years is what is required to be considered an expert?

 

[AZPete]

My company is saying they will lose business if they don't have someone stamp these reports.

Prior to joining the company, my P.E. was never mentioned.

Clearly, the company does not have any experience with stamped work product. May want to ask your mgmt is this is a big deal or just a wish list request. If it's a big deal, then request that they pay for an attorney specializing in this arena for consultation, quantify the volume of business hanging in the balance that YOU are the key to, get quotes for the insurance required to cover YOU for the entire legal duration of liability, propose to you a compensation package that rates the risk to you and the bonus business to the company, and then you can contemplate the whole of it.

 

[IRstuff]

And again, this is a personal liability; if you have no experience in the testing and whether they did the testing correctly, it's your license and liability on the line, not theirs.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[dik]

Having raised it, in this forum, you are likely committed to doing the proper thing. You cannot claim ignorance of your actions. I suspect...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[lacajun]

Read your state statutes including the penalties for not working within the law. Criminal and civil penalties are hefty in some states, as well they should be.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[SnTMan]

Hey, lac, long time no...

Good to know you're still around

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[lacajun]

And remember, your license is yours and yours alone. The state has given you that privilege because of what you accomplished by fulfilling their requirements. The state expects you to control your license per their laws. I use "the state" in a broader sense of government.

In reading the history of some licensure laws, each state government has police power and authority to exercise its police power, which is something I would not want to tangle with. It is one thing to boast about bucking the state but it is something else to do it successfully.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[lacajun]

Thank you, SnTMan. Yup, still alive and kicking. Glad you are, too. So may are still here, which is good to see.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[IRstuff]

Welcome back, Pam!

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[StrucPatholgst]

I'll add my two cents, but I don't think it will apply in this case.

I look at building components and assemblies that I had no hand in designing or specifying, but I get paid to come up with designs to safely modify them. I perform my due diligence, and by the time it comes to run the calculations, I'm either a subject matter expert in that assembly, or I was close to begin with. So I have no problem sealing plans for modifying legacy structures once I have the engineering worked out cold. Anything less is treating my license like a rag to wipe up someone else's problem.

Does that apply in the case of a new part and a material test report? Probably not entirely, but becoming a subject matter expert on an issue can go a long way. But maybe not all the way, because I - using my simplified analogy - would never sign off on whether an existing beam was 50 ksi steel or not unless I had proof.

 

[psmpsm]

Well, I spoke to the person who asked me to sign and he was alright with my response. I don't have to sign/stamp anything. That being said, I had another scenario that came up.

I am going to be working on the design of datacenters as well. My manager has extensive experience in datacenter design. Shortly after I joined, he asked if I would be alright being the engineer of record for the datacenter designs we do. He understands I don't have the experience, but says he will help me and make sure that I understand everything before I stamp it. I don't think he intentionally asked this only after I accepted the offer, but I don't really know him well enough to say.

In a court of law, is this an acceptable justification to provide my seal? Or does my experience have to be obtained under a licensed PE? My manager does not have a PE. For reference, I have no datacenter design experience, but would certainly like to get it. I just don't know if working on one or two projects is sufficient for me to be considered the engineer of record and for me to stamp everything, even if I understand it.

My manager is very understanding of my reluctance to sign the first time around and supported me, but I'm under the impression he has told his superiors that I would be ok being the EOR already (and I don't blame him, I told him I would be ok with it because this was many months ago, when I didn't know any better). If I refuse, I doubt anything would happen such as me losing my job, but it wouldn't look good to say the least.

And finally - since he did ask me to become the engineer of record after I joined - is this something that would necessitate additional compensation?

 

[Gr8blu]

psmpsm: This is along the same lines as the first case where your management assumed you would use your seal to "okay" things for them. There are a couple of big questions here: 1) Is your mentor (manager?) an engineer, or just an experienced designer? If s/he is not an engineer (licensed or unlicensed) then you're not necessarily learning the engineering side of the design - you're learning "what worked in the past, as far as we know". 2) If "all of a sudden" stamped documents are required, what did the company do beforehand? 3) Do YOU believe you can be competent in all (or enough) of the required design challenges in the time frame your boss is assuming for this project? 4) What are the consequences if you DON'T stamp the document(s)?

For the record - as an EE, I have only ever had to apply my stamp to a handful of design documents (read "less than 50") over a professional engineering career spanning almost 40 years (Yes I know - my sig says a half century, but that includes the time spent before I actually acquired my PE.). All of them were related to either personnel or public safety, or were "required documentation" for government projects. Note that stamped prints were all for EXTERNAL consumption, as well - not one of the internal manufacturing documents had an engineer's seal affixed. Lastly - even though some people view me as an expert in my field, I do not. I know just enough to realize how much else there is to learn about "my little niche".

Converting energy to motion for more than half a century

 

[psmpsm]

1) My mentor/manager is an engineer in the appropriate discipline (electrical).

2) I know that before, atleast for the first question I asked, the company had a PE to stamp the test reports. I believe that PE retired. That's not an issue for me though as I declined to stamp.

3) I'm really not sure. I don't believe doing one project makes me an expert in datacenter design but I do think I'm capable of understanding every single thing in the design.

4) If I don't stamp, I'm not sure. The thing that is odd is, this never came up during the interview or onboarding. I was hired for system studies based on my background, but later found out I'd be involved in design, and then I'd be the engineer of record.

 

[phamENG]

but later found out I'd be involved in design, and then I'd be the engineer of record.

Something to be mindful of: many states require special business licenses and certifications through the state's engineering board to offer professional engineering services. So if these data center designs are being sealed and then sent to an AHJ for building permitting, your company may need a firm license. There are also additional insurance requirements beyond general liability that the company should consider. They should have an E&O policy. You mentioned they had somebody, so this all may be in place, but another common feature of those firm licenses is that a particular person be designated as the engineer in charge of the company (or at least all engineering aspects of the company). You would need to be named on that document.

I'm not sure where you are - all states are a little different - but this is a good generalization. You may want to check into it. (I doubt this falls under any industrial exemptions since you're being told a seal is required.)

 

[gte447f]

My manager does not have a PE.

My mentor/manager is an engineer in the appropriate discipline (electrical).

Well, now I'm confused. Which is it?

If your mentor/manager is a PE in the appropriate discipline, what is the problem, and why are you being asked to stamp, instead of just learning under your mentor/manager's responsible charge?

 

[psmpsm]

I never said my manager was a PE. He is not.

He is an engineer without PE certification.

 

[gte447f]

My mentor/manager is an engineer in the appropriate discipline (electrical).

psmpsm, OK, I guess I misunderstood. So, you mean that your manager is an "unlicensed engineer"? In my neck of the woods, engineer generally means licensed PE, at least in the building construction industry, so that's why I was confused.

 

[psmpsm]

Yep, that's correct. Unlicensed engineer, but he has degrees.