Elevating the status of the Engineering Profession 4

[josephv]

Our world is faced with environmental problems, a looming energy crisis, famine and poverty.

These are problems that can be ameliorated by some technological fixes. It is engineers who should lead us towards our better future.

But instead of leading, our profession is battling to survive.

Our noble profession is besieged with layoffs, underemployment, salary reductions, and diminishing job prospects.

Amid these predicaments, concrete actions are being undertaken in Ontario, Canada to elevate the status of the Engineering Profession, and make us leaders.

1) The Ontario Society of Professional Engineers was created in order to help educate the government and the public on the importance of the engineering profession.

2) The Engineer in Residence Program was launched so that, volunteer engineers would visit public schools and help teach youngsters on how math and science are applied in the real world.

3) “Engineers without Borders” is a charity that is helping developing countries.

4) Universities are revamping their curriculum to include design courses and applied engineering in the first year of studies. In addition to this, more emphasis is being placed on communication skills.


What actions have been taken in your corner of the world to elevate the status of our profession? What additional actions should we take?

 

[BobPE]

rhodie, thanks for your advice, I'll try to respect myself a bit more in the future....LOL...you kill me.....I don't clutter my mind with stuff I can look up in a book...typing skills included...lol



"I don't feel that way at all. Neither do many great engineers." Well maybe you should, and many great engineers do...

I don't recall saying anything about binary, why don't you improve your reading skills, but no self-respecting engineer would be satisfied with such poor reading skills as yours. (...see how that fallacy works?)..or maybe my writing level is over your head...LOL.....I am writing from my horse remember...lol

I think more people feeling this way would elevate engineering to a level it deserves....There are a lot of people that think like you our there, there are a lot of people who think like I do too.....The question is, how would feeling this way lower the status of the profession?

BobPE

 

[leanne]

BobPE wrote: .....I don't clutter my mind with stuff I can look up in a book...

I'm not a PE & I don't clutter my brain with stuff I can look up...I learned that from reading about Einstein, who did not even know his own phone number because it could be looked up...

A reporter once asked him, after an interview, "Can I have your telephone number for any follow-up questions?" So Einstein goes to the phone book and looks through for it. And the reporter says, "You're Albert Einstein, you're maybe the smartest person on the planet, and you have to look up your own phone number?" And Einstein's response is, "It's in the book. Why should I fill my mind with information I don't need to remember?"

What do you think Albert would have thought about the Palm & Pocket PC? Or my cell phone (model Samsung I300 with periodic table of elements, RPN calculator, engineering formulas & conversion tables, graffiti board, silkyboard virtual keyboard, a Shakespearean insult generator, email, voice dial, web browser, electronic hangman/backgammon/chess/mahjong games)

He also said "One had to cram all this stuff into one's mind for the examinations, whether one liked it or not. This coercion had such a deterring effect on me that, after I had passed the final examination, I found the consideration of any scientific problems distasteful to me for an entire year."

 

[Binary]

Bob, I'm not trying to denounce the PE - though I do see how it came off that way. However, I do believe that the comparison with the CPA test is valid. I also do believe that the duration of the test does reflect, to some degree, the breadth of the material covered. I was genuinely surprised to see that the PE exam is as short as it is compared to some other professional exams (med & CPA, anyway...don't know about the bar)

I guess what I'm saying is that I believe that an evaluation system could be set up, which would include a comprehensive test, which could test the technical prowess and judgement of people well enough to render them licenses.

Understand that some of the 'tude you're getting off of me is due to my frustration with the existing system and the fact that it has thus far rendered it impossible for me to become licensed, even though I want to!

I suppose I feel that there should be a means by which I can demonstrate that I'm worthy even though I can't jump through the reference hoop.

I do agree with electricpete's suggestion about putting a qualifying exam into college or the first few years of work.

I've also said elsewhere and will repeat here that I endorse the notion of mandatory licensing - I simply believe that consideration needs to be given to those who can't jump through the reference hoop and yet are technically and professionally competent.

Personally, I'm getting tired of this whole debate... I've yet to hear one person concede much of anything to the other side so we're all just wasting our time with it...

 

[GregLocock]

ep wrote "- A person will not be eligible for PE until they have completed the experience. Doesn’t it make more sense to verify their “current” knowledge (at time of application) than their past knowledge (during school).

- College exams can be passed on short term memory. PE exam verifies the fundamental have been retained over a longer period of time, implying the material has been more internalized.

The question for Greg: What’s wrong with requiring a professional to demonstrate a minimum knowledge by exam prior to licensing?"

Nothing, although by that logic a PE should be retested every year to make sure he is still competent.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[electricpete]

Binary wrote:
"Personally, I'm getting tired of this whole debate... I've yet to hear one person concede much of anything to the other side so we're all just wasting our time with it..."

It is an interesting observation and interesting discussion.

My take on the PE discussions going on all across eng-tips: Most of us from both sides are not at tremendously wide disagreement. I think all of us agreed with buzz' summary posted somewhere. But we're just each trying to shine a slightly different light on the same issues. And then defend our statements. And challenge others' statements. And somewhere in the defending and challenging we end up splitting hairs about what point we are really making.

Yet we all keep coming back! Thread junkies as someone put it. Actually I think the disagreement is what makes it interesting. Either we like to argue or we have too much time on our hands? I'm not complaining. If I didn't enjoy it, I wouldn't keep coming back.

ok - back to the hairsplitting:

Greg - So you stated that you agree with requiring a professional to demonstrate a minimum knowledge by exam prior to licensing. Then you continue that the logic you agreed with would suggest more frequent testing. Is that what you advocate?

 

[TheTick]

If one is to perform any useful measure of problem solving, then, at some point, one will need to have a lot of information pertaining to that problem in one's brain.

Sometimes you just gotta know stuff. Your subconscious mind won't sort out the answer flipping through a paper handbook. "I can always look it up" is the mantra of people too lazy to learn anything concrete.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

 

[sc]

I used to think that engineers in Australia had reasonable standing . . . . . . . . until last night when attending a structural engineering meeting. The meeting was read a brief section of a letter from a state building authority (who structural and geotech engineers must register with to practice independantly in our state), a part of which stated that engineers should be suitably trained at TAFE Colleges (associate diploma courses only) as well as a list of universities (including one that doesn't have an eng deg. and excluding one of the more prominant universities).

In Australia an engineer is only an engineer when he/she completes a degree course that is approved by the institution of engineers or approved equivalent from overseas.

So for a state regulating body to not even know this, is in my mind, pretty bloody ordinary. The response from our group was basically; to point out what an engineer is and how they are trained and to ask the body to complete their research properly before casting about for opinions.

How can we expect to have good all round standing if the relevant state authorities can't get it right?



regards
sc

 

[PSE]

In whom's eyes should the status of engineering be elevated? The public at large is "aware" of engineering through the products that they use. We do not generally have one on one interaction with the public in the course of our work. Doctors, Lawyers, Dentists do. We are therefore represented by the products we bring to fruition.

We are perhaps victims of our own success. The fruits of our labors work! The expectation is a product will function as intended with less and less continued support or maintenance. The public therefore becomes more and more ignorant of the underlying technology. Only when a "disaster" occurs does engineering become newsworthy and enters the public perception.

In terms of improving public awareness, why not put the name of the engineering firm at a construction site along with the contract firm building it? Industry is perhaps only beginning to tout the prowess of their engineering staffs (ie GM "professional grade&quot. They should be encouraged to do more.

Associations can be good ambassadors for the profession as long as they do not devolve into a self important beauracracy. Choose wisely. The PE / Industry Exempt makes it difficult in the US to use exercise one's personal initiative in affecting the public's perception.

Regards

 

[leanne]

Sometimes you just gotta know stuff. Your subconscious mind won't sort out the answer flipping through a paper handbook. "I can always look it up" is the mantra of people too lazy to learn anything concrete.

I know lots of stuff. I'm full of useless trivia - I say useless, because I've yet to be accepted to play for Ben Stein's money or Jeopardy...

But, to be quite honest, I am lazy - my mom will tell you that. I describe myself as being like electricity - I want the shortest possible route to my goal. I'm always looking for simpler, more efficient way of doing everything...Since I work in Quality & process improvement is the name of the game, my boss accepts my lazy characteristic.

 

[FrenchCAD]

To pick the the simpler and more efficient way to solve problem is the first quality for an engineer imo, isn't it? So I won't call you lazy, but effective ;-)

Cyril Guichard
Mechanical Engineer

 

[TheTick]

Just because it is possible to look something up doesn't mean it isn't important enough to commit to memory.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

 

[leanne]

Typically, if you don't use it, you lose it...then, must look it up...

 

[rhodie]

It's good thing many of you didn't take the attitude of "I can always look it up!" to multiplication tables and state capitals, or you might not have ever finished your homework as a kid!

Memorization and internalizing knowledge is what seperates the man from ape. (among other things...)

 

[RDK]

In Canada law school and medical schools are each 3 years following two years undergraduate study leading to a degree plus one year articling or internship, total time 6 years.

Engineering is 4 years university plus 4 years as an intern total time 8 years.

I am not sure where TheTick gets the 7-10 years unless he is referring to a specialist in which case the equal would be someone with a MSc so add 2 more years to the engineer time for a total of 10 years.

Having taken most of the courses leading to an accounting designation (about ¾ the way through should I choose to peruse it.) I would say that BobPE is closer to the mark than the others about the difficulty of the program. Accounting is some simple concepts coupled with some basic mathematics that anyone who has an engineering degree should be able to master quickly.

The only difficulty in accounting is to understand the tax code, it makes any engineering code simple and clear by comparison. Perhaps that’s because accountants and lawyers and not engineers wrote it.

As far as feeling superior to accountants that’s because 1,000 years from now their ledgers will have turned to dust and be totally forgotten, on the other have I expect that some of my work will still be visible and perhaps functioning. (Hey there are still Roman aqueducts and bridges functioning and they are twice that age.)

Remember that the biggest gains to public health did not occur because of anything the medical profession did, it happened because of the massive water and sanitary sewer collection, distribution and treatment systems designed, built operated and managed by engineers.

Engineering does have the biggest impact on the way we live, how long we live and how comfortable we live than any other profession. I am proud of that fact and proud of the fact that I play a small part in this great tradition. I am also proud that my son and my nephew have chosen to follow in my footsteps and become engineers.

The message we should all endeavor to pass along is that we engineers play the biggest role in modern society, more than any other profession. We are the most ubiquitous of all the professions and we have a long and proud heritage to follow and to continue. We are the most varied of all professions as well. From electronics and computers to machines and aerospace, from bridges and buildings to outer space, we do it all.

ERTW




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[electricpete]

Certainly there is something to be said for both sides.

There is no one right answer. If we could learn everything we ever need to know, that would be ideal.
In the real world that is a simple impossibility.

We learn what we can as we have the time. We learn every day. You haven’t stopped learning yet, have you Tick?
There will always be times when it is beneficial to consult a written reference or another person.
We live in the middle. Everybody’s right. My 1.99999 cents.

 

[leanne]

As I recall, rote/repetition was how we memorized the plutification multiplication tables in 3rd grade...

A can memorize & learn by rote/repetition.

 

[TheTick]

A can not memorize the periodic table of elements or a table of galvanic potentials and make use of it. A can not memorize key points of an h-s diagram and mentally interpolate for quick ballpark reality checks.

's also make tools, experiment, and appreciate beauty. Don't be so hard on them.

All this machinery making modern music can still be open-hearted.

 

[rhodie]

leanne

You've somehow managed a reply with information you've memorized after looking up in a book. Given the context of this thread, your reply creates anti-matter and everything implodes. Your Pippi Longstocking reference wins.

 

[leanne]

rhodie - WOW!!! You caught that? I loved the Pippi Longstocking books!!!! I wanted to be Pippi...

 

[Binary]

Here's another vote for Pippi. I read 'em all when I was a kid, more than once.