Eminent domain abuse

[TheTick]

The "Ethical Engineering Work" thread touched on this subject. What are the opinions on the abuse of eminent domain? I'm especially interested in the opinions of civil and structural engineers who are more closely involved.

Eminent domain has "expanded" from power lines and highways to parking lots, strip malls, and restaurants. It's shameful theft. It is not right for a government to commandeer property simply to increase revenue.

 

[drawoh]

The word here in Canada is "expropriation".

Governments need to be able to acquire property to do stuff. There is no way around governments having this power.

Governments abuse the power because the voters elect people who do have insufficient respect for private property, and because they elect people whose campaigns have been paid for by developers who want to replace neighborhoods with shopping centres.

I do not see this as an issue of engineering ethics.

An engineer can plot a route for a power line that causes the least possible disruption of people's property. None of the eminent domain abuse incidents I have been reading about involve engineering projects. Shopping malls and expensive condos seem to be the culprits.

Note to any anarcho-libertarians out there. You live in a government free community with privately owned roads. I purchase the roads and order everyone to stay the heck off my property. My business parter waits six months and then offers a ridiculously small sum of money for your property. We build shopping malls and condos. We will have hire an engineer at some point, but the overall program still is not engineering.

JHG

 

[H57]

As a structural engineer the most common occurance of something like eminent domain that I would consider "questionable" has to do with residential neighborhoods close to downtown business districts. It's amazing how many calls I get from home owners who have their houses red tagged by city officials when the city has never been inside of the house. The city then leaves it up to the home owner to hire a structural engineer to do an overall assessment of the home outlining all structural deficiencies (if there are any). If the home owner does not hire an engineer (or cannot afford one) or if they do not perform repairs that an engineer feels are necessary then the city levels the "unsafe" homes in an effort to free up cheap land for new construction/businesses (last part is my opinion as to why they do it). Talking to the homeowners and seeing some of the houses I find it disturbing as some houses are not structurally unsafe at all, yet the owner is forced to pay for someone to confirm this with the city.

 

[BigInch]

Unfortunately pipelines are one of the biggest users/abusers of eminent domain. Some project managers and proponents don't usually make it too easy to make "optional" reroutes that are off the straight line. Designated archaeological sites, designated sensitive areas, geologic hazards, number of road and river crossings and class factor are about the only reasons well understood. Mention visual impact and you get blank stares, just before a pink slip.

Abuse of eminent domain in the pipeline industry is an extremely bad idea. Landowners feeling as partners to the project are much easier to deal with over the next 50 years.

Also unfortunately I've found that the closer the proponent is related to government, perhaps actually being an agency of the government, makes for the worse the abuse.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[JLSeagull]

Largely in reaction to the SCotUS ruling in New London, CT,
Texas voters passed a constitutional amendment that limits eminent domain powers. The amendment prevents the government from taking private property via eminent domain and then making the the property available for private economic development even if the private enterprise might increase tax revenues.

The Texas Legislature passed similar legislation only to have the current governer Rick Perry veto the legislation. The Texas voters sorted out this mess. Perhaps they will sort out Rick Perry next year.

 

[BigInch]

Are pipelines "private economic development"? It seems like they fit the bill.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[JLSeagull]

I need to read the amendment to respond - and this puts into the legal forum instead of engineering. ;-)

Perhaps the pipeline companies don't take the land from the owner; instead the pipeline only occupies a portion of the land. This is not the same as forcing the owner to sell to the state who then resells the land to a developer to build the mall.

 

[photoengineer]

Most cases of emmiment domain seem reasonable to me. In particular, powerline and pipeline projects sometimes need to seize property out of necessity since a single landowner could stop a major project. Same goes with roads.

The problem - and what the OP was referring to - is when cities use eminent domain to seize a undesirable business (say a auto repair shop) and then give the property to a business more desirable (say a restaurant). This happened in Mesa, AZ a couple years ago. Basically the city wanted to hand pick which business were located on each street corner. That's not right.

You get into a similar issue with shopping malls.

Honestly, you don't need to go around seizing property to make the development work. I work at Boeing and we built a huge office in a part of town that used to be residential. One of the neighbors thought it was cool to be located so close to Boeing, so she refused to sell (the plan was to level her house and turn it into a parking lot) even though everyone around agreed to sell. So Boeing built a parking lot that completely surrounded her house. She was ok with that and for probably 10 or 20 years she lived in the middle of a corporate parking lot! She eventually died, Boeing bought the house, and today it is a parking lot. But it goes to show that emmiment domain didn't need to be used to seize the property.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[BigInch]

If pipelines can't buy the right-of-way for one reason or another, a trip to the courthouse is soon to follow.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[655321]

In my experience it’s been the land owner that extorts money out from the public. There always seems to be at least one person that threatens to derail a project by holding up easements or rights-of-way on some garbage piece of land unless they get paid 10 times what it’s actually worth.

I think the power of eminent domain is essential for cities to function and grow...and don't assume that the government is always the bad guy.

 

[IRstuff]

"some garbage piece of land "

This is precisely what government wants the public to think. Land cannot be garbage; if it were, it would be useless for development, as well.

While the historical usage of eminent domain has been to raze delapidated buildings and rennovate/redevelop neighborhoods, the more recent usage has been much more mercenary, eliminating viable areas of the community because doing so would bring more revenue than what the city was getting in property taxes. This particular aspect went to the Supreme Court and was overwhelmingly supported by the business-rabid members of the court.

The current law of the land is that if some developer can either convince or pay off enough of your city council, YOUR house and neighborhood will be sacrificed on the altar of big business, regardless of the viability of said neighborhood.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[hokie66]

You guys need to watch the Australian movie "The Castle".

 

[IRstuff]

Maybe only down under; certainly not in the US...

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[patprimmer]

"The Castle"

In my opinion, the most over rated Aussie movie since "The Cars That Ate Paris".

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm

for site rules

 

[JLSeagull]

There always seems to be at least one person that threatens to derail a project by holding up easements or rights-of-way on some garbage piece of land unless they get paid 10 times what it's actually worth.

I moved to Houston in 1974. Among the local tales was the last property sold for to the developer of a business park "Greenway Plaza". I only wish that such fate were mine. Perhaps a garbage piece of land may have been worth $1000 per acre before a development plan but it can quickly change to $1000 per square foot if the development needs that property. More power to the property owner. )

 

[655321]

Not every eminent domain action is about redevelopment. A taking I had experience with involved a permanent easement on a 30' x 1000' swath of land against a creek in a farm field needed to build a section of relief sewer. The city had offered to pay substantially more than the appraised value, but the owner fought bitterly for more before the city gave up and began condemnation through eminent domain.

By the way, the owner wasn't a farmer, it was a development corporation who bought the land several years earlier and leased it back to the farmer.

 

[BigInch]

Well ... the owner shouldn't be allowed to play with all the cards stacked in his favor either. Fair is fair.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[hokie66]

Aw, Pat, these other Aussies told me it was a classic and I thought it moderately funny. The only Aussie films I get anything out of are the comedies, like "The Dish", the recent Paul Hogan road film, and the one about the dunny man.

 

[plasgears]

Saw a bad example of this in Asbury Park, NJ. An old residential area with retirees was condemned to clear the way for high ticket condos.

My parents lived in a condo high rise on the Long Island coast in NY. The adjoining blocks had old single residences, which were cleared in short order. I believe there were poor blacks living in the old houses. It's a repeating pattern.

When the Blue Ridge Parkway was developed in VA, the displaced were moved to new apartments outside the park. That's the most responsible approach to eminent domain.

 

[JLSeagull]

A link to the 2009 Texas Contitutional Amendment on Eminent Domain follows:

http://www.capitol.state.tx.us/tlodocs/81R/billtext/html/HJ00014F.htm