Empty Plastic containers

[TravisMack]

I am seeking the wisdom of the collective here:

What would be the classification for storage of empty plastic barrels? Think plastic containers ranging from 5 gallon to 55 gallon. They will be stored solid piled to 18'. The building is a pre-engineered metal building with an eave height of 24' and a peak of 32'-9".

I was thinking going with ESFR, but since the building breaks the 30' barrier, I don't have the pressures to make a K25 system work without a fire pump.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

 

[LCREP]

exposed non-expanded Group A Plastic not knowing what type of plastic.

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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[TravisMack]

LCREP:

I don't know the type of plastic either. It seems that information is proving rather difficult to obtain.

However, I was figuring that as well.

Thanks!

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

 

[stookeyfpe]

My bigger question:

Who makes the resin Travis? That really is the driving variable.

I would (with a long preliminary statement saying that I don't know enough) to call it unexpanded, exposed Group A plastic. I hope the unit loads are palletized and you are addressing rack storage.

Otherwise, you are outside the scope of NFPA 13 and FM standards. You have IFC issues for the given storage scenario.

Your roof slopes tell me ESFR will not work. Call me if you want to chat.

 

[TravisMack]

It is a huge building. The roof slope is <1:12.

I will try to find out the components of the plastics. This is in a very rural area and very little help and info is forthcoming.

The containers are "solid piled." There are not going to be any racks in the facility.

Thanks!

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

 

[FFP1]

Contact the plastic drum manufacturer for details. You will probably find out that you are dealing with an unexpanded, Group A plastic commodity as stated above. If the drums are stored with open tops and arranged in the upright position(could fill with sprinkler water)......you have a much more challenging storage arrangement than typical unexpanded, Group A plastics.

Consider a false ceiling to deal with slope and excess clearance issues. You might want to be prepared to provide several options to the customer. Options will probably include false ceiling OR large drop heads (sounds like this option would require a fire pump or pump & tank arrangement) OR lower maximum storage height based on available water supply and other factors (not a great approach because the customer will probably increase storage heights at a later date and have inadequate fire protection) OR you could suggest a low value detached building (sprinklered or unsprinklered) for this storage. The fourth option might be the best as long as the storage arrangement does not present a significant fire hazard to the adjacent buildings (i.e. low value building with adequate space separation); because the value of empty plastic drums is relatively low, the drums would be easily replaced and the cost of this approach is probably much lower. The customer could probably maintain some of the plastic drums in the main building while maintaining the bulk of the drums in the low value detached building.

I hope these suggestions prove to be useful.

 

[TravisMack]

The drums have lids. Think large 55 gallon drums with lids stacked on top of each other to 18'. This is a container company. This is a warehouse for their empty containers before they are shipped out to their customers. The roof slope is not an issue. NFPA 13 is applicable for storage in areas with roof slopes not exceeding 2:12. The roof slope of this building is 1:12.

There are some issues with clearance heights.

Still awaiting information on the type of plastic.

Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

 

[firepe]

Travis,

Sounds like you are aware of the perils of this determination, have recieved some good advice, and realize it's not solved yet.

Sorry to bring it up again, but you are the one determining this? Why? Sounds like PE to me, not SET.

 

[TravisMack]

FirePE:

This is in a rural area with those involved with very little experience in this arena.

I have been on a fact finding mission to help solve a problem. The final determination will go back to project engineer of record to develop the final criteria. The PE has little to no experience in this particular area (by his own admission), but will be the one providing the criteria. As you have stated, as long as he has PE, he can provide the criteria. It is left up to his own ethics to determine if he is practicing within his knowledge base.

I believe it is in the realm of my experience to go on a fact finding mission, as asked to do by the GC for the project. Again, all final criteria will be provided by the PE for the project.

Have no fear that I know where the line is located and do not intend to cross that line.



Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC

 

[firepe]

Travis,

I don't think both feet are in the batter's box, I think you are over the line and out of bounds with this.

You said "I have been on a fact finding mission to help solve a problem. The final determination will go back to project engineer of record to develop the final criteria. The PE has little to no experience in this particular area (by his own admission), but will be the one providing the criteria."

Do you work for this "engineer"? Are you under their immediate personal supervision? And for that matter, it does not matter if you are or not if they're not qualified.

You are doing the work, then "handing" it to an unqualified engineer to "pass off" as their own work. That is not kosher. You are enabling someone to violate the engineering laws (which I am certain there is a law in every state to that effect) by doing the work for them, so they can claim it, outside their area of expertise.

You also said "As you have stated (meaning me I assume), as long as he has PE, he can provide the criteria. It is left up to his own ethics to determine if he is practicing within his knowledge base."

That too is correct, the PE profession is self policing, and it's not just up to the PE's ethics to determine whether they are "practicing within his knowledge base", it is also the law not to practice outside your knowledge base, and you are in effect enabling that to occur.

 

[TravisMack]

Firepe:

Thank you for your thoughts and insight. I do appreciate it.






Travis Mack
MFP Design, LLC