End Joist Conundrum 7

[ElectricZimm]

I am having a new house built and I did a walk through the other day. I was amazed at what I discovered. There were huge notches cut into the end joist of the house right abouve the seal plate. Some of these notches were right on the bearing corner and also in the center of the end joist. One board had 3 notches that were 10" across and 10" deep in a 2"x12". They had left about 2" of the board in tact. They appear mostly for HVAC, but others looked like oops cuts all over 3/4" of the way completly cut through the end joist. I found over 12 locations like this throughout the new build. Considering these cuts I can only imagine that the end joist is ruined, is this a correct conclusion? If so how would you repair this on a new construction after all the framing is complete with windows, electric, plumbing has all been roughed in? Thanks ElectricZimm

 

[charliealphabravo]

I'm not sure I understand some of your terminology.
By end joist do you mean rim joist?
By seal plate do you mean sill plate?
What is a bearing corner?


My initial take based on what I can understand is that these cuts will need to be evaluated individually. Some may be ok depending on where they are located and how deep they are and how they are loaded. There are guidelines for notching joists and rim joists. Anything that falls outside the guidelines should be evaluated for repair or replacement by a structural engineer preferably.

 

[ElectricZimm]

Sorry let me see if I can clarify the terminology I used.
-End Joist - On top of the sill plate what I thought was called the "end joist" a 2"x12" board set vertically on it's side that runs all the way around the house towards the exterior of the house's sill plate. The floor joist butts to this board on the ends, and they also rest on the sill plate for the first floor.
-Yes seal plate was a type -O should have been "sill plate" not enough coffee yet.
-Bearing Corner- Where two load bearing walls form a corner. Like a exterior corner of a house.
Also as a clarification this is a 2 story, 3500 sq. ft. home. Thanks ElectricZimm

 

[woodman88]

Attached is a good basic guide on holes and notches. Check out the wwpa website (

http://www2.wwpa.org)

for more information.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Hire a structural and/or DON'T close on the house

 

[woodman88]

Before hiring a structural engineer I would take as many pictures as you can. Send a copy of the pictures (with a copy of the pdf I attached above) to the contractor and building department inspector requesting an engineer's review. If you get a sealed report stating they are okay or that some (that do not meet the pdf requirements) are okay. Then I would hire a structural engineer to review their report.

Garth Dreger PE - AZ Phoenix area
As EOR's we should take the responsibility to design our structures to support the components we allow in our design per that industry standards.

 

[ToadJones]

On the rim joists where the floor joists are 90º to the rim the cuts are probably less or a problem as the wall is also support on the joists itself and if built properly, the wall studs should line up directly over the joist below.
On the rim joists where the rim is parallel to the floor joists it could be a bit of a problem, but, usually those walls carry less load.

 

[ElectricZimm]

Thanks everyone on the information! Every cut in the rim joist exceeded the depth and length of cut allowed on that PDF Woodman88. Thanks this helped considerably and yes I have taken numerous photos to date and plan to meet with the builder again tomorrow to have them fix this.
@ToadJones - I wish it was in only one location however they did not limit their cuts to just one side or the other it is all the way around the perimeter of the house, and anywhere within the section of the joist in most areas leaving only about 2" of the joist in tact. As this may pose as less concern on the ends where the joist also support the wall. I am baffled why they cut through these joist members instead of putting the duct work & plumbing cut outs in the areas that are padded out with additional framing for this purpose, and where it is shown on the prints to be run in the first place.
Again thanks everyone this has been a big help.

 

[ToadJones]

There are areas where you could remove portions of the rim joist and it would structurally cause no problems. It also looks like (from the picture) they were using the the rim board lumber on their saw horses and put some cuts through.
It looks like some shoddy work .

 

[ztengguy]

For your own curiosity, I would spend $300-$400 and have a engineer come out a do a walk through of the house why the framing is exposed, he can look for load paths, blocking, etc. and make sure in general its a good structure. you found one thing, wonder how many other things there might be.

 

[ElectricZimm]

I plan to take a stuctural engineer through as many of you suggested. Being an Electrical Engineer I know when something structurally does not look quite right, but I am also smart enough to know when to ask for another opinion from the respected discipline. Thanks again for all of your input.

 

[charliealphabravo]

I would follow Woodman's advice and observe the niceties of communicating with the contractor and/or the EOR before asking another structural engineer onto the site. I once did some consultation for a sad case where the homeowner had crossed wires with the contractor over some concerns with the quality of construction. I did not know all the details but in the end the poor homeowner was living in the basement of an unfinished three story with an electric T-pole, well, and septic system four years after the contractor walked off and put a lien on the house. It was a cautionary tale as they say.