Engineer or what? 10

[diacetim]

I’m very disappoint of what is happening in my company.
My original degree is a Bachelor of Science Degree in Mechanical Engineering.
I have 5 years experience in designing – material-handling equipment. I know some of Cad program – ProE, Inventor, Autocad.
I have a colleague, which does not have half of my knowledge. She is not even engineer; she has only the qualification of a drafter.
The problem is that she is very appreciated for what she’s doing ( she can’t do anything without asking our manager, I mean only designing) and she will be my manager in couple months.
I’m not Einstein and I don’t want to be a manager, but I think as a Engineering Manager you should have at least a Bachelor of Science Degree.
My problem is that I cannot I won’t kiss some manager’s asses.
Maybe I’m so dumb that I do not realize my real value and I should stay in the corner and be indifferent of everything?
Thanks!

 

[PSE]

madkungfu,

Primarily from the Senior Engineer. However, project teams are usually small enough that the occasional status meeting keeps everyone up to speed and the project manager has the timeline chart up on the wall for everyone to take a look at.

pmureiko,

I would agree with you that some companies have those positions listed but they are mysteriously unfilled. Thankfully where I am we actually have individuals within those posts. Some of them (having been with the company a long time) are flexible enough to perform both roles. You bring up a good point though, If someone shows you a career ladder, better find out if it is actually used.

Regards,

 

[diacetim]

You are amazing guys…
So you are saying that the diploma doesn’t matter anymore.
A person could be a leader of engineers without be an engineer.
A person could be a leader of doctors without be a doctor. Could be a nurse..
A person could be a leader of savants without be savant. …

What doesn’t mean a leader for you? Somebody who tells you how to stay in your chair?
Or maybe you thing a
If I need an advice who am I going to ask? I could ask the customer, or maybe the sale-guy, because he knows as much as my colleague.
Because as you said, I am an engineer and designer, and if it’s a problem on my projects, I respond for them, not the manager-leader.

Look at the pour country in the world. Most of them are poor because of an incompetent or dictator leader.

 

[TheTick]

diacetim:

Know your place. Don't forget who signs your paychecks. You work for your employer, and your employer "works" for your customer. Your employer has paid for your time, so your employer is your customer. Usurping the authority of your employer under the misdirected principle of "putting the customer first" is dangerous ground.

As I say to my boss and to our sales staff: "I will give you the plain truth. I leave it to you to twist it to your needs."

If you want customers beyond an employer, start your own business. Then, when one of your people goes and wrecks one of your customer relationships "for the customer's own good", tell me you wouldn't fire him. I would.

Most engineers are a cry from savant status. Anyone who would apply that label to himself is probably more delusional than savant.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[diacetim]

To TheTick:

This is bla, bla
I do not think you understand at all my point.
I am not the person who bows his head and kiss the mud because my boss-employer said so. The employer is not my god.
I have my pride I don’t want to lose it. I want to walk on the street without any cloud who could darken my pride.
Of course I know my place and I know also my value.
I know something: I sale my knowledge’s and the employer buys it. What’s this “usurping the authority”? Am I leaving in the slave system or communism? Obviously, you don’t know anything about communism. I do.
If he’s not satisfied for what he’s paying for, I am fired. Don’t I have any rights? If I’m not satisfied with is offer, I’m free to go…
Am I right or no?

 

[TheTick]

No less "bla, bla" than the tripe you started with.

Perhaps I missed your point.

Yes, I do know about communism, on a very personal level.

Submitting to authority in the proper context is not kissing mud.

Perhaps I misunderstood when you said " I could ask the customer, or maybe the sale-guy, because he knows as much as my colleague.
Because as you said, I am an engineer and designer, and if it’s a problem on my projects, I respond for them, not the manager-leader." I have seen many engineers overstep their bounds with customers.

 

[GregLocock]

diacetim wrote:

"So you are saying that the diploma doesn’t matter anymore."

An engineering qual doesn't matter for a manager. It does for an engineer, although I would agree that there have been many exceptional engineers who have not had engineering degrees.

"A person could be a leader of engineers without be an engineer."

Yes

"A person could be a leader of doctors without be a doctor. Could be a nurse.."

Could be. Bit of an ego problem there, but as far as managers go I expect doctors are worse than engineers.

"A person could be a leader of savants without be savant."

Savants have leaders? odd.

"What doesn’t mean a leader for you? Somebody who tells you how to stay in your chair?"

The manager decides on priorities, and resources. He interfaces with the rest of the organisation to provide those resources.

"If I need an advice who am I going to ask? "

My technical peers, books, and myself. Not my manager.

"I could ask the customer, or maybe the sale-guy, because he knows as much as my colleague. Because as you said, I am an engineer and designer, and if it’s a problem on my projects, I respond for them, not the manager-leader."

I'm pretty sure you are being sarcastic, but yes, that is roughly correct.



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[SERVOCAM]

Diacetim, sorry may get off track, but......

My problem is that I cannot I won’t kiss some manager’s asses. - why should you, that is for lame-asses

Isn't a Manager suppose to be there for you? A person to bat for you? A person you can ask for advice? A person who can help with your priorties?

All my managers have been. Maybe it depends on the position and what you do/don't do? A person that "Bosses" you is not a good manager.

It seams your biggest complaint is that she is going to be a Engineering Manager, but doesn't have a degree in Engineering. I struggled with this (in a reverse way) trying to get the job I have now. They wanted someone with Direct-Sales experince and a BS in Engineering. I had neither. But what I did have was 5 years of experinece in the technology, working with sales people, and other stuff. I had to fight for the job, and it worked.

Maybe at my last job, that is why I didn't get the Manager's position. I didn't have a BS....which is total BS. My last company would also never give good sounding titles. Your not a Manager, but a Director. A specialist or a technician......

Maybe I’m so dumb that I do not realize my real value and I should stay in the corner and be indifferent of everything?

I learned the best thing is do you job, do it well, and make sure people know that you do. Get your name out there...let you be known. Think "If not you, then who" and "What can I do to make a differnce." Also, keep smiling, be happy, and know what your worth (Reason why I left my last job...sure shocked them). They thought I was happy (getting paid what I am worth). How could they be so blind...I gave them the opportunities to know.

Anyways, I guess I disagree with the "Needing a Degree." That piece of paper......suposedly says I know something.

 

[sc]

Do not confuse managers with leaders!

Not all managers can lead, some sure can bully though.

I have worked under a non engineer manager and he tended to respect a persons judgement more than an engineer/manager would, why? because he was not a person to get bogged down in design/engineering issues (my thoughts only). He also new how to get people to have pride in their work and become confident in what they did.

regards
sc

 

[StarrRider]

diacetim

I have had managers who were so full of themselves that they couldn’t see a good idea if it bit them on the A$$. If they didn’t come up with an idea – then it obviously wasn’t any good. A few days later they might have an original thought or two (yours) and everything would change. These people are really hard to work for - period.

I’ve had managers played games all day. In one company the VP of Engineering and the Sr. Mechanical Engineer played tug of war with the two designers caught in the middle. Since the VP was the Sr.’s boss – we said “Yes Sir” to the Sr. but made sure the VP knew about it when we were told to do something not according to the plan. When the Sr. asked about it – of course the VP just happened to ask us about it and then gave new orders. That was also very frustrating – fortunately we were using AutoCAD and could run multiple sessions so that it looked like we were following both sets of orders.
The Sr. in this instance had a very strong Polish accent and it was difficult to understand exactly what he was saying. This was a very well educated man with a Dr. tacked onto his name. One of his favorite little jokes in life was to tell stories about his youth. As he did – he would slip further and further into his accent. By the end of his little story – I was always straining to understand what he was saying – but the ending always had a little dig in it that closely matched a situation that one of the listeners might be in. I remember a couple of those stories – and I remember asking one of the other listeners after he left – if he really said what I thought he said – did he just call you (or me) an idiot? Normally - they didn’t know either – but it was terribly “Funny” to him.

Fortunately – I have had more good managers than I have had clowns who were given positions that they were not qualified to fill. Most of them were not Engineers. Did I go to them when I had a problem? Of course I did. At times, I would let them know I had a problem and what I was going to do to solve it. At other times I needed their approval, for money or additional time, so I was very careful to phrase the problem in a way that they could understand.

The point that I am trying to make here is that a Good Engineering Manager is not necessarily an Engineer. A good manager is people oriented – NOT – technically oriented. They know how to manage people and that is an art all by itself. A good manager does not brow beat you into doing your job – they are not bossy little dictators – they simply let you know that you are appreciated and valuable and they make you want to do your very best !!! Those are qualities that are hard to find.

If this girl has those qualities – consider yourself lucky – and go back to work.

I just re-read your original post. You said:
<she is very appreciated for what she’s doing (she can’t do anything without asking our manager, I mean only designing) and she will be my manager in couple months.>

This sounds a lot like envy to me. Please consider this. A good manager can also spot competence – he has probably recognized that you know what your doing and he trusts you to do your job. At the same time – he might realize that she has potential but is unsure of herself and lacks confidence. If so – then he has probably made it very plain to her that he wants to know what she is doing before she does it and gives her a little praise when her judgment is sound. That sounds like an awfully good manager to me. It is a lot easier to do that then to allow her to do something stupid and then have to knock the crunches out from under her – possibly loosing that potential forever.

Lee

The best leaders inspire by example. When that is not an option, brute force and intimidation works pretty well, too.

 

[etarhan]

Is management a natural result of a number of successful technical years? I doubt.
Management needs a different set of capabilities. In the middle level management positions, these capabilities are usually not learned. They are mostly there from the birth. Being a good engineer and proving that you are good after this number of years, does not prove that you will make a good manager.
One of my managers said some 25 years ago that he would not consider me for the open management position because I was technically good and he would be wasting my qualities if he made me a manager.
I quit.
I'm sorry like hell since.

 

[nauticalmike]

Many good and bad points were made here. It appears to me that most of the bad points were the result of the posters misunderstanding the original post. Let that be a lesson to us all. Before you jump to the conclusion that everyone you meet is an idiot, stop and take the time to be certain that you understand what they are trying to tell you,then, and only then can you be reasonably certain that you were right.

Confused? I know that I am.

 

[pablo02]

It is easy to make judgments:

One of my best managers (in a tecnical arena) was a biology major (not related to our field) and one of my worst was a political science major (ex-Air Force Colonel)... even in a technical area, the higher the position, the more it relates to dealing with people (and my experience is also that the &quot;politics&quot; gets worse...)

Even then, what the management &quot;flavor of the month&quot; can dictate how a company deals with its people overall -- good companies who fall into this trap can turn; what the business needs can also dictate what happens -- a good technical company can quickly go under because the leaders lack the vision or the financial accumen -- or the &quot;bean-counters&quot; can take over, and fail to understand the technical aspects of the business and the result is the same... or, make it grow if they know their limitations and rely on those who can provide the needed expertise..

if you really have good managers, they will tend to promote those who will benefit the company, even if you disgree... otherwise, hope that enough good ones rise to the top to offset the rest...

quite possibly, the individual you are upset about has some qualities that management is really looking for (or not) -- time will tell -- but for the most part, most companies out there will have the same situations;

if you're not happy, you always have a choice...

 

[bluepac1]

Diacetim,
I think it would be very difficult for you when she becomes your manager with a mindset such as you have right now. Unless you change your attitude to accept the reality of what your management has chosen in their own right, then you may not advance in your present job. If you really like to know why they chose her, then you need to talk to Personnel responsible for her upcoming appointment. You may be surprised.
However, if you insist on your own opinion because you believe you're more qualified and Management hasn't really noticed it, then you may be in for a potential conflict. You can choose to stay, battle the stresses, work with your manager's objectives and win-win or you may choose to find a more challenging job in a new environement, With your 5- year experience under your belt, I am sure you will find one. Sometimes a plant need to be transplanted for more fertile soil.
God bless you mate.
Bluepac1