Engineering Across State Lines

[SandCounter]

I am interested in comments from someone who has experience working across state lines. I'm sure there are exceptions, but generally, does the requirement to be licensed apply to

A. the state the client is located,
B. the state where the engineering work (calculations, drawings, etc.) is performed,
C. the state where the item (equipment, vehicle, building, etc.) to be engineered is located,
D. or all of the above?

I am looking at providing a proposal to a company in another state to draw up capability plots from their own data for equipment that is manufactured and sold around the world. I would like to, of course, promote that along with my experience I am licensed (in my home state), but it's not a big enough job to warrant going through the application process in that state to win the job.

Any input from the seasoned vets would be appreciated.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[zdas04]

The answer to all your questions is "maybe". This is so muddy from state to state that no generality is meaningful. The federal government is making it much worse. For example the EPA has specified that a "Spill Prevention and Countermeasure Control (SPCC) Plan" must be stamped by a P.E. In New Mexico, the board has ruled that a stamp associated with a facility in NM must have a NM P.E. Colorado has said that there is nothing in their regulations that would cause an SPCC Plan to be stamped so a P.E. from anywhere can do those silly plans in Colorado (that was a few years ago, I'm not certain that they have kept that position). If I stamp a retaining wall design to be built in Texas I need a Texas P.E.. If I stamp a metal building design to be assembled on-site in Texas with an Arizona stamp it is fine.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[SandCounter]

Thanks for your comment zsas04. That is muddy.

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[JAE]

For structural engineering of buildings and bridges it is C.

Not sure about a provided analysis for a product (widgit?) that will be sold everywhere.
If you are selling consultation services without a building or widgit involved, seems like you might have to be licensed where the client is located...but not sure.

Usually, for muddy situations like this we would immediately contact the involved state engineering boards and pose the question to them. They are usually quite helpful in that regard.

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[SandCounter]

Thank you JAE, good rephrasing of the question (widget). I looked around their state licensure site but did not find any links to the engineering laws. The state does have a contact number listed for inquiries. I will probably do that.

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[Ron]

Agree with David and JAE.
I have experience on both sides of this issue....buildings and widgets.

In general, if the service is related to a code restricted area such as for buildings and land development, you would need licensing in that locale.

For manufactured items it is less clear and varies from state to state. As an example, I have done structural analysis and design of products that were manufactured in Florida, other states and in other countries, but shipped world-wide. These items had no relation to local codes or standards and were governed by industry standards that were not location specific, and my services were rendered in my state. The legal test of this came when representing these manufacturers in litigation and the courts ruled that my analysis, evaluation, and even court testimony were allowable since the engineering involved was more universal than that required for local code mandates. One of these states where this was allowed was the highly restrictive licensing in Illinois.

 

[IRstuff]

In California, there is an industrial exemption, which allows both structures and products to be engineered by employees or consultants without licensing.

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I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[zdas04]

IRStuff,
I think that comes under the category "correct, but irrelevant". The industrial exemption is included in the NCEES model law and has been accepted largely intact by all 50 states. The OP is about work that does not come under the industrial exemption.

[bold]David Simpson, PE[/bold]
MuleShoe Engineering

In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei, Italian Physicist

 

[TehMightyEngineer]

I've seen this a lot in precast. Agree that this is a very grey area.

For box culvert and bridge components I've always been required to be licensed in both my home state and the state it will end up in. I've had EORs accept my design preliminarily to not hold up production while I worked on getting a stamp if I didn't already have one in the project's state.

For buried structures such as manholes I've only been required to be stamped in the state they end up in for aircraft rated structures for airport construction. All other structures I just had to certify that they met the applicable ASTM standard and project specification without stamping (which involved engineering so likely required my home state stamp, but I doubt anyone would have pressed this).

For building items like stairways, beams, etc. I've never got a good answer. I think as long as I could demonstrate that it met the local building codes it wouldn't technically need to be stamped in the final state the building was in; but I've never tested this and have always made sure I had a stamp in my home state and the final state it's going to.

Now, let me pose a similar question to OPs. We recently bid a job to design a precast box culvert for a waste water treatment plant across the border in Canada. There were no requirements in the specification other than "provide a box culvert" not even loads. So, if we get the job do you think I would need a PEng. stamp for Canada? This was setting of all sorts of alarm bells in my head only having a US stamp but the estimator said "lets bid it and deal with that bridge if we get the job". Obviously if I have any doubt I'm going to probably recommend we farm the engineering out to another engineer for that one job.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

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[IRstuff]

"I think that comes under the category "correct, but irrelevant". "

How so: "I am looking at providing a proposal to a company in another state to draw up capability plots from their own data for equipment that is manufactured and sold around the world. I would like to, of course, promote that along with my experience I am licensed (in my home state), but it's not a big enough job to warrant going through the application process in that state to win the job."

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[SandCounter]

TehMightyEngineer, you describe an interesting situation as well. I'm wondering, does your company sell the culverts or just design them?

IRstuff, I see what you are saying about the industrial exemption, I've worked under it for many years as an employee. However, I always understood it to apply only to employees designing for their own company as the end-user, not employees and consultants. I am not familiar with California's law, but it seems to me that if the industrial exemption applies to consultants as well, it would make general requirements for sealed work irrelevant except for situations where a seal is specifically called for by law.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[IRstuff]

California, being on the left coast, possibly has more liberal laws than most:
6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[TehMightyEngineer]

TehMightyEngineer, you describe an interesting situation as well. I'm wondering, does your company sell the culverts or just design them?

We price/sell, design, and manufacture. We're usually a third party to the general contractor and submit everything through the GC for the EOR to review. So, technically the GC sells us to the EOR/owner, and we sell our products to the GC.

Professional Engineer (ME, NH, MA) Structural Engineer (IL)
American Concrete Industries

http://www.americanconcrete.com

 

[SandCounter]

IRstuff, from a quick search around, it looks as if California may be an exception in including consultants. In my own state, the exception applies only to "bone fide employees." However, point taken that possibly the other state I am looking at may have similar rules and is worth a check.

TehMightyEngineer, I was wondering if you could take advantage of using a third party in your state, perhaps the GC, to sell the culverts and then they could sell them to the end client if they meet all of their requirements.

I used to count sand. Now I don't count at all.

 

[JAE]

"...the performance of engineering work [red]by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation [/red]provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates."

The above quote from IRstuff's post above doesn't appear to involve an OUTSIDE consultant providing engineering services for a separate industrial entity.

If the work is done by the manufacturing company "or its employees" for internal purposes, then sure, industrial exemption.
But if you are an engineering consultant, offering services for a separate company, seems like this exemption may not apply.

I suppose that the phrase "by a manufacturing....corporation" could imply any services hired out by that corporation...thus the added "or its employees" but not sure about the real intent.



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[IRstuff]

I specifically highlighted "consultants" in subsection b, which makes it clear that a consultant to an industrially exempt company, working on a product produced by said company is treated like an exempt employee.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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[JAE]

IRstuff - my apologies - I quit reading after a) and started typing. You are correct.



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[HamburgerHelper]

Find a third party to bid on work and stamp and review your engineering until you can justifying getting a license in that state?

 

[IRstuff]

@JAE

no worries, the world is nothing, if not convoluted

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

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