Engineering Managers and their inexperienced employees 3

[s0eebuch]

Hey all,

I am a relatively inexperienced engineer working for a seasoned engineering manager. We work for a consulting firm, doing civil-related projects.

She has about 10+ years of experience with this company and I have been here less than 2 years. We are both P.E.s.

My question is to those who have managed inexperienced engineers before. How do you handle mistakes and/or omissions made by those that work for you?

I try to be as thorough as possible with specifications, reports, plans and the like - but it always seems like I've missed an obvious (to my boss) item. She ends up very unhappy and eventually takes over my projects to 'clean them up'. At times, she has not assigned projects to me because she says she can finish them quicker and 'correctly'. She has admitted she is 'nit-picky' at times, but that doesn't change the way she approaches my work.

How can I address this issue? I'm starting to lose motivation and desire to do my best because nothing appears to be good enough. And I can't seek advise from others here because we're such a small group - there isn't anyone else I can turn to!

Advice? Thoughts? Should I suck it up and stop complaining?

 

[ykee]

Ask to do some field work. It will give you a sense of how errors affect the job & next time you put together plans/specs, you will be further ahead of the game.

 

[KENAT]

thread768-231274

I help supervise interns. I also conduct product documentation verification (Ok, drawing check) for more experienced staff.

So I get to encounter peoples errors a lot. Most of these errors are people failing to comply with documented standards and procedures.

I don’t have trouble helping people out the first time they make a mistake. However, I expect them to learn from this, take notes or whatever as required.

The second time they make the mistake I’m a bit less patient, depending how complex the issue is.

The third time I tend to be a bit short with them.

The forth time, bring an extra generator on line we’re going to be lighting up the chair…

I think I’ve been doing this too long, I now have very little patience, maybe she’s in the same boat. I also find myself in the position where doing it myself from the start would be less painful than teaching someone else to do it, helping them do it, giving them feedback to make corrections and finally taking it over and having to clear up the mess anyway. I try to be patient but when I’m slammed with work my patience wears thin.

My boss says I’m too much of a perfectionist and too controlling, so I try and keep that in mind as well. I also try to keep the old ‘…teach a man to fish’ saying in mind, but especially with interns that’s even difficult as I know that in 6 months time I’ll have new interns to teach how to fish.

So – take it as a challenge. When I started out no matter how careful I was my drawings got bled on. I took it as a challenge to become the best I could be and get at least one drawing through with no red! Not sure I ever managed that second part but I did get good enough that I now review other peoples drawings.

Also, take note of mistakes she points out, and try to extrapolate that to not just identical issues but even just vaguely similar ones. Also read up on relevant standards, policies, procedures to improve your self. Make sure and leave time to incorporate anything she finds, don’t just give it to her a day before it’s due.

By all means talk to her about it but before this carefully examine your own role in this apparently dysfunctional relationship, identify any of your issues and try to correct them, or have a plan for correcting them. Just going to here and basically saying ‘you’re mean to me, stop it or I’ll cry’ isn’t going to help much.

Chances are you’re both at fault, you have limited control over her faults but you may be able to do something about yours.


KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[s0eebuch]

I do that already. In fact, I don't usually start drafting project documents until after I have visited the proposed job site.

I guess what also burns me up is the fact that my boss also makes mistakes (I hear her in her office defending her actions) but, somehow, my mistakes are worse.

 

[s0eebuch]

wow. thanks, Kenat. good advice.

 

[jmw]

obvious (to my boss)

Are these genuine errors of omission, things you would retrospectively agree you should have done?
Or are they things she should have stated she required at the outset but didn't?
Or is she deliberately making life difficult?

One thing you could do is review some previous reports etc. prepared by herself or for her by other engineers and see if those things you have omitted have previously been included.

If she is being genuine then you will find the things she expects have been delivered in the past by other engineers. If they aren't there, why not? What has changed since then?

Without some examples, it is hard to say if what she is asking if is what other engineers would normally include.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[s0eebuch]

Some are honest mistakes, like, I failed to back-check myself or I made one change which affected another plansheet, but didn't follow through.

Other 'misktakes', though, appear to be preference. The dog chased the cat versus the cat was chased by the dog, so to speak. At least, that's how it appears to me.

 

[KENAT]

Couple more things - design 101 is "know your requirement" this goes for documentation etc. not just the actual engineering. Maybe you can work with her to improve this aspect.

Second - everyone makes mistakes. I recently inherited a job that at least 3 other people have failed to do properly. I spent a bunch of time on it, dotting i's and crossing the t's as it were. Finally I think I'm done with the drawing, I've looked it over, having first left it a while etc. Pass it to someone else for review and they still found a stupid mistake - I'd put the same designator twice on someting.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[s0eebuch]

Oh, and another item: Before I came on board, she _was_ the department. I'm the only other engineer that has worked directly for her since she's been in charge of this department.

The second engineer that came on board is older - and neither one of us can stand him. But that is a whole 'nother thread!!!

So, it is her, the two project engineers (myself and Older), two draftsmen, one engineering technician, and field crew (as needed).

 

[KENAT]

It may just be that while she's perhaps a good engineer she's not a good manager and/or doesn't have the best people skills.

If she was the department then maybe she has a bunch of her own rules etc that were never written down, maybe you can help document these for the benefit of the rest of you.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[IRstuff]

Everything you said in your OP is something I would have said when I first had to manage other people, so I personally stopped do that; managing others, that is ;-)

Unfortunately for you, she doesn't appear to have a management mentor, one that can identify her "mistakes and omissions" relative to managing her group.

There may be nothing that you can realistically do about it. You can try talking to her, stressing that you want to learn and hope that she can teach you the skills and processes for becoming a better engineer. Try to avoid talking about her management style, at least, until you're on firmer footing.

Frankly, this sort of thing occurs at just about every level and every age. I see this with my son's high school drill team commanders, and how they approach situations like this. Unfortunately, as with adults, someone who is even reasonably good at management is seldom to be found.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[s0eebuch]

Ok, so I guess my 'take-away' from all this is to survive until I gain enough experience to become a manager myself?

(sigh)....well, thanks for everyone's advice. I though about talking with her superivsor, but I feel that will just make things awkward and difficult between us.

I think at this point I'll grin and bear it. Because I carry no weight in my company, I can't complain because it'll be her word against mine. I could talk to her, but how do you explain to your manager how to manage you???

Thanks again. Maybe I'll go have a beer after work........or three.......

=o)>

 

[KENAT]

I wouldn't just grin and bear it as such, like I said maybe you can't do much about her side of the issues but you can about yours.

Also you don't have to become a manager, and even if you do unless it's your company you'll still have a manager or your own, or share holders or something.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[s0eebuch]

My professional goal is to move up in my current organization because - all complaining aside - I am very happy doing what I do, with the organization that I am in, at the pay scale I'm on.

I want to eventually become a manager.

I will certainly look at improving my work (thanks, in part, to the sage advice I've read here) but it would be nice to be able to separate personal preferences from unsound engineering. Sometimes (due to my inexperience, I believe) that is difficult for me to do.

Thanks again!

 

[KENAT]

By 'your side of the issues' I didn't just mean improve the quality of your work. Maybe you can work on how you deal with her, manage your manager as it were. Also, maybe you can document her personal preferences and make them department policy.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

 

[s0eebuch]

Manage my manager.

I like that. I'll just have to figure out how......

 

[cedarbluffranch]

Errors are probably the most frustrating thing in engineering. The hard thing is engineering is very black and white so errors will be everywhere.

I agree that engineering is a learning experience. You don't learn in college how to error check your own work very effectively, and even so that's primarily checking equations, formulas, and math. Real life you're checking drawings (at least in my field) and data tables. It's much different.

It can be helpful at times for the more senior engineer to simply do the work and then go over with you exactly what they did so you don't have to muddle around doing it. But, at the same time, the company hired you to do the work and needs more than the 1 other engineer working there. So, yes, the company is expecting the more senior engineer to help you learn the ropes.

One thing I've found is the "new engineer" title never seems to go away. Every group that I've worked with have their own processes and procedures. Even if you've worked in industry for 20 years, you'll have the learn the ropes everytime you join a new group. Even at my company (Boeing), I'm still considered a newbie everytime I change groups and that's frustrating.

Good luck!

 

[IRstuff]

Management isn't for everyone; certainly isn't for me.

A couple of things that you can take away from this situation are:
> Use every opportunity to observe others' management styles. Determine what goes right and what goes wrong. I try to show my son how others behave and what to learn and take away from each management encounter and experience.

> Try to visualize what you might normally do given a subordinate like yourself. The basic "walk a mile in their shoes" thought experiment.

The end goal is to learn what not to do. You might never see anything done correctly, but you should accumulate all the wrong ways to approach each situation.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[Ross0684]

s0eebuch.
Unfortunately it seems as though the supervisor may also be a control freak.
Additionally, you mention that she was also
"the department"and herein lies more of the problem.

It is very difficult to delegate, after having had to do it all one out.

Been there, done that-when the pressure is on, it is very difficult to delegate and get the required results back as required, when in the past, experience allows a sole operator to make decisions on the run(usually based on proven short cuts in some cases) and in most cases get the desired result. That is where the "should have done it myself" attitude comes into play.

But this does not help the person who in most cases is doing their best that they can.

And before getting assistance (you) she would have had to take responsibility for any stuff ups and now is not prepared to take yours,even though she may have made the same errors herself.

But there is an old saying: you can delegate but you still must accept responsibility.

As other respondents have flagged, you can only do your best, but if you continue to make the same errors, you need to re-assess your own efforts.

I feel that there is no harm in having a face to face discussion with your supervisor, but more important is to try and get a feel for what the requirements are for each specific project and the desired expectations.
Don't get into personalities and maintain a professional air for that is what you are trying to achieve.

May I suggest 4 beers but don't drive
Cheers
Ross

 

[HamishMcTavish]

Hey s0eebuch,

A few people have mentioned the obvious i.e. that EVERYONE makes mistakes, whether they are actual mistakes or missing something obvious that would make a project/document/etc better. Experience is no bar to this which is exactly why many companies have cross checking procedures.

My question is this: you are both PEs - she checks your work, so who checks hers?

No more things should be presumed to exist than are absolutely necessary - William of Occam