I keep hearing of more and more companies sending their engineering work overseas. My company just recently hopped on the bandwagon and started sending my work (and many others) to India. It's kind of scary to see this happening. I'm worried about the stability of my job with this happening. Plus, I hate to say it, but the guys in India aren't bad. The language barrier is tough but they are whizzes at the FEA software. It seems like their actual engineering knowledge is somewhat lacking, but they work for peanuts compared to me. Where is this headed? I'm curious to hear everyone's opinions on this issue.
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Engineering Outsourcing 4
- Thread starter bradpa77
- Start date
They will always need a local person to manage these guys.
Also, it is hard for foreigners to get a PE in some states so anything that requires a PE stamp will be safer than areas that dont.
Also anything involving inspection would be a safe bet also.
Also, it is hard for foreigners to get a PE in some states so anything that requires a PE stamp will be safer than areas that dont.
Also anything involving inspection would be a safe bet also.
SomptingGuy
Automotive
We've been doing a lot of work for the Japanese for many years. And Korea. And now China and India. Outsourcing has gone full circle.
- Steve
- Steve
In the late 1800's dirty laundry was sent by sailing ship from San Francisco to Hawaii to be cleaned and pressed and returned by sailing ship. Somehow that was the best economics for that instant in time (maybe all the people who would normally work in a laundry were in the gold fields?). It wasn't the best economics a few years later.
Outsourcing Engineering is exactly the same thing. There will be a time that it is better economics to run the FEA voodoo in India, but living standards and wage rates will shift and people in India will start needing more of their Engineers to do their own Engineering and the prices will go up. Then we will be scrambling to recreate the expertise that we lost when the work went offshore. At the end of the day everything is always changing, and is pretty certain to change again in the next instant.
David
Outsourcing Engineering is exactly the same thing. There will be a time that it is better economics to run the FEA voodoo in India, but living standards and wage rates will shift and people in India will start needing more of their Engineers to do their own Engineering and the prices will go up. Then we will be scrambling to recreate the expertise that we lost when the work went offshore. At the end of the day everything is always changing, and is pretty certain to change again in the next instant.
David
Off shore or out of house, it really dosen't matter. You still need to be there to fix the problems they create.
Years ago, I had the job of reviewing drawing from an out of house engineering firm. It seemed we were always training there new guys, while we only worked with there experenced people when we had major problems.
Now looking at the other side of the company (not the same company) I see there projects done by out of house people, and the amount of waste is so blearing, it just makes me crenge.
Years ago, I had the job of reviewing drawing from an out of house engineering firm. It seemed we were always training there new guys, while we only worked with there experenced people when we had major problems.
Now looking at the other side of the company (not the same company) I see there projects done by out of house people, and the amount of waste is so blearing, it just makes me crenge.
Stringmaker
Mechanical
My company does all sorts of "Offshoring". For the past year 75% of my job has been overseeing the FEA work. At times I do question the cost savings that everyone claims. It takes high-proficiency people to oversee this stuff and while yes, they are cheaper per hour (like 4X cheaper) they also take much more time to do a given task. I think it's a wash in the end overall. We probably do save money by having them do the routine cookie-cutter type tasks and quite frankly I don't want to do them! I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is my company has set itself up such that the majority of the analytical work is now being done offshore.
Anyway, as for your job concerns - I wouldn't be. So much more analysis is being done these days and there simply are not enough knowledgable people domestically to do it. Like someone else said, someone needs to oversee & manage this stuff too. Hopefully, you are working with a company there that has technical leads you can communicate with directly. Many of the people are fairly low proficiency and it would be assinine for you to be working with them directly.
Anyway, as for your job concerns - I wouldn't be. So much more analysis is being done these days and there simply are not enough knowledgable people domestically to do it. Like someone else said, someone needs to oversee & manage this stuff too. Hopefully, you are working with a company there that has technical leads you can communicate with directly. Many of the people are fairly low proficiency and it would be assinine for you to be working with them directly.
It's hard to say. Engineering graduation rates are higher in India and other countries. I overhear people here in the US saying that they discourage their young from majoring in engineering because their job can be offshored. But that is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If US students avoid engr because of offshoring fear, then the US will have a shortage of engrs and offshoring will be the only answer.
Also, there may not be enough engrs in the US to do the work, so companies look overseas to find needed talent. I don't understand why Americans don't want to do engineering anymore. Sure it's tough, but it is a great field. I guess not enough people yearn to be an engr. I can't imagine doing snything else. I longed to be an engr since high school in the early '70's. I still wouldn't pick any other masjor, now or then. If I had it to do over again in the 70's, I'd still take EE. If I was 18 right now, I'd go with EE.
Claude
Also, there may not be enough engrs in the US to do the work, so companies look overseas to find needed talent. I don't understand why Americans don't want to do engineering anymore. Sure it's tough, but it is a great field. I guess not enough people yearn to be an engr. I can't imagine doing snything else. I longed to be an engr since high school in the early '70's. I still wouldn't pick any other masjor, now or then. If I had it to do over again in the 70's, I'd still take EE. If I was 18 right now, I'd go with EE.
Claude
controlsdude
Electrical
Its been my experience that most people make mistakes and I think if you pay someone 4x less, expect 4x more errors. You get what you pay for in the end.
Same thing happened to me, supervise this crappy engineering firm. Kept sending back markups and nothing proper was done. Finally told my boss its a waste of time and money, since I spent a lot of time cleaning up their mistakes. If you tell someone to make changes based on what you don't see, thoses changes dont happen, then whats the point?
I remember this project I was on and they kept using low skilled workers that a quality millright or welder should of been doing in the first place. Cost them in the end when the inspector has a list a mile long from all the quality problems.
I would start searching for a job if you dont want to oversight offshoring your job. Life is too short overseeing a headache.
Same thing happened to me, supervise this crappy engineering firm. Kept sending back markups and nothing proper was done. Finally told my boss its a waste of time and money, since I spent a lot of time cleaning up their mistakes. If you tell someone to make changes based on what you don't see, thoses changes dont happen, then whats the point?
I remember this project I was on and they kept using low skilled workers that a quality millright or welder should of been doing in the first place. Cost them in the end when the inspector has a list a mile long from all the quality problems.
I would start searching for a job if you dont want to oversight offshoring your job. Life is too short overseeing a headache.
A company that I worked for tried this in China. Cheap parts were substituted and tolerances were all over the place. They tried to cover up their mistakes by using the Loctite Bearing adhesive instead of boring the parts correct...etc. After about a year they ditched the company and brought everything back to the US.
spongebob007
Military
I left private industry precicely becuase of outsourcing. I now work for the government in a job that requires U.S. citizenship.
This has been going on for many many years, Jaguar/Landrover have many departments that have been sending work abroad or to local expert contractors. The worrying thing is now that all jobs at JLR now have a requirement to travel to India, this is to train Tata engineers. Tata have for many years been sending U.K. engineers to India to train engineers, looking at the type of questions seen on forums from indian engineers and seeing the type of work coming out of india, i would say they have a long way to go. The quality of products coming out of China still reminds me of crap found in chrismas crackers!
GregLocock
Automotive
...as opposed to the UK's excellent legacy of oil-stained driveways?
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.Engcad, I think you will find that Tata actually own JLR, so if anything it is an Indian company outsourcing work to the UK.
Personally I am glad they do as one of the “local expert contractors” I would not currently have any work if they didn’t.
Personally I am glad they do as one of the “local expert contractors” I would not currently have any work if they didn’t.
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- #14
seymours2571
Mechanical
I would question the overseas engineers being "whizzes" at FEA. The output I have seen from overseas help has been pretty pictures at best.
I have had to deal with outsourcing help at two different companies and the result was the same as others have mentioned before: You will spend and equal or greater amount of time reworking their work. Tons of mistakes. To the engineers that actually work on projects the decision is clear: outsourcing isn't worth it. However, the business guys only see the $$/hour. The business guys, regardless of industry, view technical expertise as something you pick up at Walmart. So they will always look for the low cost supplier, because in their mind they are getting the same thing for cheaper.
It is sad that more Americans are not interested in engineering, but seriously who could blame them when our average salary in engineering is dwarfed by the pay one would get by being on a reality show. The abundance of opportunity is a major plus in America, but it does have its downsides.
While in grad school I took a course where I was the only American student the class. Universities love foreign grad students because they can charge the 4X the hourly course rate as an in-state or out-of-state student. The guys (and girls) were blatant cheaters. One time during an exam the proctor left the room and suddenly all of the other students began talking to each other for over 5 minutes. I felt like I was in a coffee house in the middle of a hot debate. This type of behavior was rampant throughout this particular course. It really opened my eyes to a possible explanation why bachelor educated American engineers are hands down better than advanced degreed foreign engineers. May be coincidental, but I doubt it.
I don’t know if it is a cultural thing or not, but you have to detail out every process step to outsourced engineers. On one hand it is good that they will do what they are told, but on the other hand they will not do anything unless they are told. It is frustrating. Just like others have mentioned above you feel as though you are training them all the while you are doing the work that your company is paying them to do.
But I think the cat is out of the bag. More and more companies are pulling the work back to the United States. Those companies that are not are late to the party and will learn quick enough.
Stephen Seymour, PE
Seymour Engineering & Consulting Group
I have had to deal with outsourcing help at two different companies and the result was the same as others have mentioned before: You will spend and equal or greater amount of time reworking their work. Tons of mistakes. To the engineers that actually work on projects the decision is clear: outsourcing isn't worth it. However, the business guys only see the $$/hour. The business guys, regardless of industry, view technical expertise as something you pick up at Walmart. So they will always look for the low cost supplier, because in their mind they are getting the same thing for cheaper.
It is sad that more Americans are not interested in engineering, but seriously who could blame them when our average salary in engineering is dwarfed by the pay one would get by being on a reality show. The abundance of opportunity is a major plus in America, but it does have its downsides.
While in grad school I took a course where I was the only American student the class. Universities love foreign grad students because they can charge the 4X the hourly course rate as an in-state or out-of-state student. The guys (and girls) were blatant cheaters. One time during an exam the proctor left the room and suddenly all of the other students began talking to each other for over 5 minutes. I felt like I was in a coffee house in the middle of a hot debate. This type of behavior was rampant throughout this particular course. It really opened my eyes to a possible explanation why bachelor educated American engineers are hands down better than advanced degreed foreign engineers. May be coincidental, but I doubt it.
I don’t know if it is a cultural thing or not, but you have to detail out every process step to outsourced engineers. On one hand it is good that they will do what they are told, but on the other hand they will not do anything unless they are told. It is frustrating. Just like others have mentioned above you feel as though you are training them all the while you are doing the work that your company is paying them to do.
But I think the cat is out of the bag. More and more companies are pulling the work back to the United States. Those companies that are not are late to the party and will learn quick enough.
Stephen Seymour, PE
Seymour Engineering & Consulting Group
GregLocock
Automotive
I laugh. I see no sign that USAn engineers en masse are exceptional. The resources they are given ARE exceptional.
USAn engineers are pretty good, but I'd rather have Russian or German FEAers, they probably understand the maths. In fact I'd rather have Russian engineers full stop.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
USAn engineers are pretty good, but I'd rather have Russian or German FEAers, they probably understand the maths. In fact I'd rather have Russian engineers full stop.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.Most of the real smart people here (USA based company) have foreign accents, be they european (including eastern Europe & Russia) or asian. In some cases they may have studied in the US, I'm not sure, but it's interesting to note.
Oh, and though I may have an accent I'm not including myself in the abover "really smart" category.
Oh, and though I may have an accent I'm not including myself in the abover "really smart" category.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
Greg,
I agree with you. The technical education of the average Eastern European engineer is excellent. The Poles who I've worked with on and off for ten years have a remarkable understanding of the underlying principles - far better than their equivalent from Western Europe or the USA - and the handful of Russians who I've met are of a similar quality. Factor in that much of their work is conducted in a foreign language using a non-native alphabet and you have some pretty impressive people.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
I agree with you. The technical education of the average Eastern European engineer is excellent. The Poles who I've worked with on and off for ten years have a remarkable understanding of the underlying principles - far better than their equivalent from Western Europe or the USA - and the handful of Russians who I've met are of a similar quality. Factor in that much of their work is conducted in a foreign language using a non-native alphabet and you have some pretty impressive people.
----------------------------------
If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!
moltenmetal
Chemical
Well, Greg, I guess there are Russian engineers and then there are Russian-educated engineers. I've met a few of the latter who were Soviet-era "recruits" from Soviet protectorates in the developing world, who were given an "education" in the USSR proper, consisting of a couple years of engineering and a couple years of Soviet indoctrination. They didn't score high on the fundamentals by any stretch of the imagination, if it was engineering fundamentals you were talking about.
There's such a diversity in engineering education across the globe, and from place to place within certain countries, that it's impossible to make valid generalizations about engineers from country X or Y. The best you can do is to establish a few normative tendencies in culture, attitudes, language skill etc. which give you some clues about whether or not a person is a likely fit for a particular work environment.
We don't rely on any of that crap- we interview and ask technical questions. Very necessary, given the answers we get from some candidates- even those with pretty resumes glittering with credentials.
There are good engineers and bad all over the world. Nobody has a magical formula to crank out perfect ones every time. And no engineer arrives fully formed from university- they're a product of the culture and work environment in which they gained their education AND their work experience.
There's such a diversity in engineering education across the globe, and from place to place within certain countries, that it's impossible to make valid generalizations about engineers from country X or Y. The best you can do is to establish a few normative tendencies in culture, attitudes, language skill etc. which give you some clues about whether or not a person is a likely fit for a particular work environment.
We don't rely on any of that crap- we interview and ask technical questions. Very necessary, given the answers we get from some candidates- even those with pretty resumes glittering with credentials.
There are good engineers and bad all over the world. Nobody has a magical formula to crank out perfect ones every time. And no engineer arrives fully formed from university- they're a product of the culture and work environment in which they gained their education AND their work experience.
moltenmetal
Chemical
Back to the OP's topic: all consulting engineering is "outsourced" engineering really. It suffers from a key problem: a degree of separation from the work at hand. Sometimes this separation is necessary and inevitable and completely manageable across an interface that can be proplerly defined. And sometimes it's an impossible mess, requiring boots on the ground to have a hope of understanding the larger picture.
When the consultants are in another country, speaking another language, working in a different business culture, the interface just gets harder to manage. This makes the job of the person setting up and managing that interface all the more difficult. If the only upside is a lower hourly rate for the work being done, and the downside is the whole project turning into a clusterf@#k, with little to no liability for the consequences extending cross the interface, the arrangement can be a very poor value proposition.
When the consultants are in another country, speaking another language, working in a different business culture, the interface just gets harder to manage. This makes the job of the person setting up and managing that interface all the more difficult. If the only upside is a lower hourly rate for the work being done, and the downside is the whole project turning into a clusterf@#k, with little to no liability for the consequences extending cross the interface, the arrangement can be a very poor value proposition.
GregLocock
Automotive
Whatever. "The output I have seen from overseas help has been pretty pictures at best." may be true, but invited a certain amount of derision, based on my experience with engineers from 4 continents.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
Cheers
Greg Locock
SIG
lease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.- Status
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