Engineers only push a button 2

[peppiniello]

hi to all,

only a question about current structural and seismic engineering practice worldwide

in my Country, engineers usually design R/C structures using software that, once you've set geometry and material properties, make structural check and give you directly design drawings

in this way even an informatic engineer can design a hospital in a seismic area, just drawing members geometry, pushing "run" in a FEM package, and printing drawing output, without even making sure wheather his sections are ductile or not

when he's not sure, he only adds reinforcement to feel safe

in this way most people who do not have a BS in engineering can design structures, have their design signed by a professional engineer, and submit their project, resulting this way more competitive than who spends years understanding principles and practice and tries to do things better

there're lot of people who think PUSHOVER analysis is just pushing a button

does the same happen in your Country too?

 

[rb1957]

g'day

i too agree with the last several posts, about FE being a loaded gun, and how ecveryone should be able to do simple hand calcs to "sanity check" their results.

however, i disagree (for what it's worth !) with the astructurale about filling the experience gap with a post-grad degree. i think you get experience by doing, and would favour the return of co-op or apprenticeship programs.

 

[sbi]

I wonder how many of these peope worked on the new air bus that few last week??



SBI
Central Ne.,USA

 

[rapt]

rb1957,

I agree that post-grad degrees are not the general solution though it may benefit some to do one after a few years of experience in industry to get the theoretical background to what thye have learnt.

I have commented several times on this list on the need for engineers to understand a design area before using software to design in it.
Too many designers see software as a solution to their lack of understanding of design tasks. If they do not understand a design area, such as PT design, they purchase software to do it for them hoping it will make up for their lack of knowledge. And in doing so they pick the biggest blackest black box they can find because it asppears they have to know the least to use it. Little do they realise that they actually have to understand it more themselves the blacker the box they pick. SacreBlue's comment above regarding certain PT design software is a good example of this.

Software should be a calculation tool used in the hands of an experienced designer to make his design quicker and allow him to iterate his design better.

To answer a question in SacreBlue's first post, many concrete design software packages do not check ductility, especially the FE ones.

 

[whyun]

The so-called engineers who rely fully on computer output to make up for their lack of understanding of engineering concepts and methods are not worthy of being called "engineers". They would be less than mediocre engineering technicians at best...

 

[mrMikee]

I remember when I started using my first FEA program. It was a whole different way to structural design. I realized that my job had changed from selecting the most efficient method of analysis and then doing the calcualtions, to one of generating a model, solving, and then doing hand calculations to verify the results. Was it less wear and tear? Yes. Was it easier intellectually? In my opinion no. The fact that a computer program runs from start through to completion is not sufficient. There still needs to be engineering judgement.

-Mike

 

[dbuzz]

Elastic

The quote is:
To define it rudely but not ineptly, engineering is the art of doing that well with one dollar, which any bungler can do with two after a fashion.
Duke of Wellington, Arthur Wellesley 1769-1852
British Statesman, Military Leader

 

[sbi]

I will admit i started to draw on paper with a pencile, then had to INK it in ( yuk)to finnish it, I got into computers to get away from ink,
I still sit down and use the #1 computor on my shoulder for problems,
get out my engineering slide rule, referance books and a few yellow pads and pencile ans think it through, and yes I end up with a very good sound design that cost 75 cents instead of some of the 3D junk I see that can not even be made with out some speacial machine
That brings me to DFM being a machinist also, I relearned to make sure what I drew up could be made in house with ease!

SBI
Central Ne.,USA

 

[DRC1]

I remember about 20 years ago a cuvert collapsed durring a heavy rainstorm. The culvertwas under a 15 ft fill that supported the 4 track main line railroad from NY to Boston. When the culvet colapsed the resulting sinkhole swallowed on track and a catenary tower. Rail servisce was completely closed. My Dad's construction firm was called in to repair the damage and restore service. There were a see of white hats, but nobody was sure how to solve the problems. My fatherassetrained there were seveal wood signal poles available, plus some beams and other materials. Literally on the back of some envelopes from some mail he had on the dash, and with out even a calculator, he devloped a design to replace the catenary tower and restore service, complete with calculations in about 20 minutes. He reviewed with the engineers for the railroad and within a half hour we were working.
To me, that is engineering.

 

[TPNY]

In my acedemic and professional career, I found that those who had the ability to do the "back-of-the-envelope" calculations had the best grasp of the concepts behind engineering, math, phsyics, etc. Theirs is a rare breed. Kudos to DRC1's father for doing what engineers are supposed to do!

 

[rb1957]

perhaps this thread would be more appropiately titled "engineers don't just push buttons" ... unless they're on accountants, lawyers, managers ...

 

[crossframe]

DRC1,

People like your father are the "true" engineers. Thanks for sharing.

 

[DJYork]

As a new EIT I have found that indeed several firms relay solely on the power of the computer. I COOPed with a firm and was not allowed to even touch a computer program for my design for the first year, and just as a check afterwards. If I designed something for the first time, it was always by hand, and then checked by STAAD or RISA.

I stayed with firm for a little after graduation, but soon left and joined a different firm. This firm wanted everything by computer, and was told numerously times not to hand calc, we are paid to produce drawings and not calculations. I no longer work at that firm.

Also, the comment about having graduate studies is a good point, but has its good and bad applications. I am currently obtaining a MS, and have noticed the lack of understanding of constructability that many Graduate students lack without "real world" experience. My COOP was far greater tool on understanding how to engineer, where my education has given me the tools to understand these practices.

Last thought, most of you are probably high rank on the engineer scale than a year old EIT, but when you interview with firms they do not ask if you understand concepts, but most ask what programs are you able to utilize. Catch 22?

 

[rb1957]

to DJYork,
actually, i do ask applicants to solve a simply supported beam, and i hope you'd be dismayed by the dismal proportion who can do it (even with help).

 

[astructurale]

Regarding requiring a masters degree: I don't believe that this can replace experience and the necessary learning that must occur particularlly in the first two years as a practicing EIT, however, I have found that my colleges that have the best grasp of theory are the ones that have their masters degrees. Once they are able to pair that knowledge with real life experience it adds up to one great combination. There are some who are gifted, and theory comes naturally, but for most of us, myself included I feel a masters would be beneficial. I just wish I would have gone ahead and done it instead of working first. Once you're out of school it is much harder to go back, although I know some who have done it.

I do envy those engineers who can do calculations on a napkin and come up with great solutions. It is a gift, and one that hopefully the rest of us can get after many many years of experience.

 

[TPNY]

I agree with astructurale 100%. I have a masters and I believe it made a huge difference starting to work in the "real world". Because of my more extensive graduate education, I caught on more quickly to the different concepts and situations I encountered. I also discovered a lot of things I learned through work experience never could've been taught in an academic environment.

Every person (and engineer) is different and learns differently. For me, it turned out to be a great preparatory tool.