Engineers vs Lawyers 10

I read an interesting article in the Manitoba association publication. For copyright reasons I’ll only post the link

http://www.apegm.mb.ca//keydocs/mpe/mpedocs/03jun.pdf

The article is on page 11 at the bottom of the page.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[TheBlacksmith]

Okay, I'll jump in. Everybody has probably heard about the porch collaspe in Lincoln Park (Chicago). City just filed suit against building owners for building the porch without proper permits. Will the city win any money; probably not, but by making it a matter of public record, the city attorneys have idemnified the city against legal action and strenghtened the existing building codes. A good thing. Also Kraft foods has announced a new initiative to produce healthier foods and smaller portions. This was probably induced by the "frivilous" suits filed against fast food joints, but we all may end up better off. So there are certainly "good" lawyers and "bad" lawyers, but in the big picture, the "legal system" usually produces the most benefit for the most people.

Blacksmith

 

[rhodie]

First, I would like to say that I have enjoyed this thread very much. Your (collective) superior intellect is something to be valued.

Now, my (offtopic) input:

Also Kraft foods has announced a new initiative to produce healthier foods and smaller portions. This was probably induced by the "frivilous" suits filed against fast food joints, but we all may end up better off.

Kraft makes this seem like making portions smaller is some kind of benefit to society, almost as if Kraft is taking the high road in social stewardship with this new initiative.

I challenge you all to monitor the costs of these new "smaller portioned" foods. I am skeptical that the prices will lower proportionately. I am also skeptical that the obesity rate in the US will lower a fraction of a percent because of the initiative.

Kraft hasn't done ANYONE a favor. They are simply making more profit by selling you less and charging the same amount. Then they get away with it by spinning it in a positive manner in the media.

Unethical, to say the least.

 

[dik]

The Blacksmith:

"Will the city win any money; probably not, but by making it a matter of public record, the city attorneys have idemnified the city against legal action and strenghtened the existing building codes"

I wouldn't hold my breath on Chicago being indemnified... that they were on site and were aware that work was ongoing may be sufficient...

 

[melone]

Why should we assume that the wooden porch structure (in Chicago) should support over 150 people? (That number was reported on several different news sources / channels)

 

[RDK]

Kraft Foods
Are they responding to the lawsuits or threat thereof or to consumer demand?
Will the prices drop with the smaller portions? Don’t know. By enough to pay for the lawsuits?

Who benefits? I don’t know, but I believe that the lawsuits were not the way to force change, simple consumer demand would do that for any consumer oriented company. Kraft is a consumer oriented company.

What happened to personal responsibility for overeating?

Chicago balcony collapse

City suing for lack of building permits? Sounds like backwards logic if the lawsuit is simply to protect the city. Can they not simply charge the builder/developer with the code/permit violation? The city would say no record of building code and the developer would have as a defense the opportunity to produce the permit or some record of payment for a permit. In Manitoba that would not have to happen because the municipality has immunity from legal action for issuing a permit in error.

Who is to blame for the disaster? I don’t know. I do believe that the forensic evidence will show if the deck was constructed to code or not or if it was simply overloaded and collapsed under the overload.

Let’s assume that the deck was designed and built to code. Would the engineer who designed the deck be liable because he did not post prominent warnings “DO NOT OVERLOAD THIS DECK WITH 150 PEOPLE OR IT WILL COLASPE AND KILL SOME OF THEM”. Would he have been liable if the deck collapsed with 149 people.

If that’s the case then we will have to plaster the entire USA with warning labels. There will be so many of them out there that they will lose all impact and the true hazards will get missed. Thankfully here in Canada we do not have the runaway legal system that you enjoy in the US.

One would think that at least one of these 150 people should have had the common sense to realize that that was too many for a deck.

With these assumptions I see a parallel to the Stella case. McD’s did not post a warning that hot coffee could hurt if poured on your groin so they were liable. Any engineer here want to assume liability for their designs when they get overloaded past the code design loads?



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[dik]

50 people, I understand, else the fatalities may have been greater...

Most balconies are designed for a live load between 40 and 100 psf. At 40psf, 160 lb people on a 2' grid... at 100psf, 200 lb people on a 1'5 grid... both, real cozy!

Good chance the balcony was not correctly designed/constructed!

 

[rhodie]

This point may have been brought up before, but do any of you hesitate to give information or advice on this forum for the fear of liability? I know that I sometimes relent a response because I fear that I do not understand the situation at hand well enough to give a safe answer.

Well, most of the time I hesitate to answer because I frankly have no concept of what is being discussed.

(Just kidding, of course!)

 

[RDK]

The issue of liability for postings has come up before. Read the site policies and FAQ’s and it’s clear that the use of information posted here is the responsibility of the user and not the poster.

You can also protect yourself further by refraining from giving specific advise like use such and such a size of beam, to based on your description a xxx beam should be sufficient but contact a local engineer to be sure. Language like suggest, would look at, consider etc will also limit your liability.

Besides, if I was to be sued it would have to be in a Canadian court and I would simply schedule the trial for January when it’s –40 here. Y’all don’t forget your long underwear.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[melone]

There were at least 150 people on the porch at the time of the collapse, 13 dead & 50+ injured enough to go the hospital. I don't think that any reasonable person would assume that the structure was designed to hold that many people!!! To support this claim, some of the party goers where interviewed and said that they didn't feel comfortable with the amount of people on the porch so they got off. We are not talking about enigneers here, these were law school students, business majors, etc..

It seems pretty clear that these "victims" willfully disregarded common sense, and purposefully caused this accident. If I got 10,000 of my closest friends together and piled onto that porch, is it really the building owner, porch builder, city of chicago, etc. fault that it broke? Obviously there has to be some responsiblity for providing a safe structure, but let's think about this for a second. 150 people on a wooden structure that is 3 stories tall, that was designed for residental use only????? I'm an electrical eningeer, but I wouldn't expect it to hold (and us EE's are not known for our mechanical abilities ).

Are we saying that the American public is SOOOOOOOO stupid, that they can't be reasonably expected to think that is not a good idea? Let's just call it what it is, a terrible accident caused by careless people, that ended too many lives!!!!

 

[dik]

The Washington Post noted that there were approximately 50 people on the upper level... The following is from the Chicago Tribune which noted that there were approximately 114 people on all three levels. Further in the Tribune article, it implies that the design load was 100 psf; not having a copy of Chicago's code, I can't confirm it... From experience, it is almost impossible to get 100 psf... note my 200 lb people on a 1'5" grid...

Building owner Philip J. Pappas, and his porch contractor, George Koutroumbis, illegally erected a three-story porch using 2-by-8-inch floor joists rather than the sturdier 2-by-10-inch joists required by city code, according to the suit filed in Cook County Housing Court. If properly designed, the size has little to do with it... I've also captured a bunch of info/discussion from the SEAOC which I'll sift through this evening...

The suit also alleged that the 11-by-21-foot porch was a foot wider than the maximum allowed under the code and exceeded a limit of 150 square feet per floor by more than 50 percent.

"I believe that the cause of these deaths was the fact that the porch was constructed in violation of the law, "Corporation Counsel Mara Georges said.


Everyone, have a really great and safe 4th of July...

 

[GregLocock]

Odd question:

If one is both a PE and a licensed lawyer, how does one resolve the conflicts between ones responsibilities as a PE (society first), and a lawyer (client's advocate)?

After all, a PE is a PE 24/7



Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[dik]

Greg, this should stir up the pot...:

As a non-lawyer and a practicing engineer, this should be easy:

Are society's best interests served by having a judicial system? Having answered that, Are not society's best interests served by a specialist in the judicial system?

I don't see a conflict unless you consider the work being done by engineers as being more critical than that of the judicial system.

 

[haggis]

Interesting reading in all of these posts and the different opinions of lawyers and the law in general. The lawyer who represented Stella is an "ambulance chaser" and probably can't spell "ethics".

I wonder when some fool will "accidently" discharge a weapon, kill someone, and try to go after punitive damages from Smith and Wesson.

Can you equate the two, yes. Whether it be a gun or a hot cup of coffee you have in your hand, be careful how you handle either and have the guts to admit to your own stupidity and live with the consequences.

How far does this type of nonsense go. How about a driver who causes mayhem on the freeway by spilling coffee. Does the auto manufacturer find himself in court for providing a cup holder thus inviting the idiot to have the occational sip of hot coffee while doing 70 mph.

Don't laugh, most professionals find themselves at the mercy of the courts not because of their actions, but another's carelessness, neglect or sheer stupidity.

Lawyers, juries, Heaven help us all. When did any responsible professional last see a jury which contained even one of his/her "peers". That of course would be biased.

 

[IRstuff]

Then again, how many of us don't go out of our way to avoid jury duty?

Additionally, many self-employed professionals don't get paid for jury duty, which is an econmic hardship, which gets you off the jury.

Finally, the court clerk has figured all this out by now and doesn't bother wasting the court's time selecting professionals for questioning. Instead, civil servants and teachers and retired people get picked first.

TTFN

 

[haggis]

I won't get down on retired people, almost there myself, but civil servants, teachers ?

I say again, Heaven help us all !

 

[funnelguy]

IRstuff, I have only been called to serve on one jury in 25 years of eligibility. I went through the selection process and ended up on a wrongful death civil suit. I seem to recall that about a third of that jury was self-employed. Prior to testimony, civic pride was evident among most all of the jurors.

Now, after 10 days I wanted to choke the judge for allowing the circus to go on for as long as it had. When it was all over, the plaintiff's attorneys filed appeals which effectively rendered our service valueless. That was about 10 years ago. Will I go again if called? Absolutely!

I don't remember the source of the quote, but there is a saying that goes something like "People don't get the government they want, they get the government they deserve". I have been blessed to have been born in a wonderful country. A country made possible by the blood, sweat, and sacrifices of many before me. The very least I can do is try to help maintain the liberties handed to me on a silver platter.