EOR's Responsibility to Respond to Clients 1

[phamENG]

This is a business question, but I'm more interested in the opinions of my fellow structural engineers than other industries structured in completely different ways.

Scenario:

I design a building. We'll go with a house with no special inspections. Client takes the design, pays me for my service, and then goes silent. It sits on the shelf for a year or more. Then, suddenly, I get a call about the project. They're halfway through framing and there's a change - maybe the owner wants to make a change, maybe it was a renovation and conditions aren't as expected, whatever. But there's a change and construction is at a standstill until I come up with a solution. Remember, I haven't even thought of this project in over a year and had no idea they'd even started work. They need an answer and need it fast.

Short of a specific contractual agreement, what is my duty here? I have other clients and projects, maybe deadlines looming. I don't have a day to devote to a site visit and solving their problem right away. If I say 'sorry, can't be there for two weeks'...am I opening myself to liability for damaged due to schedule delays? That seems unreasonable to me, but anybody can sue for anything.

I ask this because it seems like every time I think I'm getting my schedule under control - this happens (twice this week!). And I'm suddenly juggling new designs with unexpected CA and my QC often suffers because of it. Of course that just feeds the cycle and increases the chances that there will be an issue that I need to solve on the next one. My thought is to add a provision to my proposals that requires one month prior notice before commencing construction or it's tough luck.

 

[phamENG]

For what it's worth, I'm not advocating ignoring clients nor do I want to. Just trying to get a feel for how others handle these situations and what experience anyone may have with legal ramifications (if any).

 

[jjl317]

This is certainly a challenge here also (on the consulting (non-EOR) side), and I will be interested to see what other strategies people have.

One thing we have done is create an alternate, higher bill rate to deal with these fire drills. In theory, I like to think over time it might help reduce the number of these cases, as a certain portion of them are just lack of planning on someone else's part. But at a minimum, they may pay a premium for the inconvenience, and which I find makes this whole process somewhat more tolerable.

 

[Lomarandil]

Certainly, there is a limit where you have a duty to respond. The WA board recently disciplined (a septic tank designer?) for failure to respond and complete duties, although it seemed like that was a several year delay.

In lieu of a contractual provision, you probably are opening up to a delay claim. Hopefully it would be mediated in your favor for some period of time measured in weeks, but by the time the lawyers are involved you've already lost.

I'd also be curious to hear if there is some "standard of practice" document that we can point to in cases like this.

 

[Celt83]

We’ve added specific language in our terms to allow for a restart fee to be assessed after a period of inactivity for projects.

RFI response time is usually 3-5 days that doesn’t necessarily mean issue resolution though. So in your case a perfectly legit response would be that the design change/ existing condition variance requires further investigation with a reasonable estimate for completion of 2-3 weeks, this acknowledges the issue and sets a timeline for resolution.

We also have language in exclusions for unforeseen conditions so in the specific case of either a design change or an existing condition variance we'd be into additional service territory which adds another layer of opportunity to set the schedule yourself.

 

[milkshakelake]

What I do specifically in cases of "Construction fire! We need this W24x1000 changed to single 2x8 right away or our project will die!" is to respond immediately and mention the price to them at that point. If it's beyond the initial scope of work, I charge for it. If it's a 10 minute to 1 hour thing, I let it go. If several of these 10 minute to 1 hour things pile up, I charge for it by the hour.

The reason I respond right away is because a complaint I see time and time again is that the engineer delayed a project during construction. From a client's point of view, time is money. If a problem isn't resolved, a subcontractor might have to walk away and come back later, costing even more time than your response. The most important thing about being a business-minded engineer isn't being a good engineer; it's about picking up the phone, answering the emails, and getting shit done. Sometimes, that means solving the issue and charging later, and hopefully not losing money on it. It's risk mitigation in a sense. The downside of responding late is much higher than the downside of not collecting $800.

Celt83 mentioned RFI response time of 3-5 days. I think that's pretty reasonable. But if it's something that will literally delay the project from the moment it's received, it needs extra attention and immediate response. Same thing for shop drawings. If the client/contractor screwed up and sent you the drawing for 3rd floor when they just finished 2nd floor, that drawing needs to be put into priority, even if other people are to blame.

I ask this because it seems like every time I think I'm getting my schedule under control - this happens

I'm working on that myself. I think unless you literally have every Friday off or something, the schedule will never be under control. This is the hardest thing about my own business. There is never enough buffer zone to deal with engineering fires. The way I'm working on it is really focusing on training employees and workflows to cut down on the amount of work needed from me. It's not trivial. But I'm hopeful that there's a solution. Been reading books about it, and trying to put them into practice.

 

[Celt83]

Celt83 mentioned RFI response time of 3-5 days. I think that's pretty reasonable. But if it's something that will literally delay the project from the moment it's received, it needs extra attention and immediate response. Same thing for shop drawings. If the client/contractor screwed up and sent you the drawing for 3rd floor when they just finished 2nd floor, that drawing needs to be put into priority, even if other people are to blame.

I don't entirely disagree but from a business and risk management standpoint our contract is clear about construction administration and define review times for shops as 10 business days and RFI response at 5 days, some Architects work us down to agree to 3 days. These are the contract terms and part of what the GC signed on for. Sure they can send through a "hot" item and if I can will turn it around faster but I'm not about to rush through a review and potentially miss something important. For things that require engineered design work the RFI should get answered right away acknowledging the issue and indicating a rough estimate on how long the rework will take again not going to rush a design, design before CA takes time and design in CA generally takes longer because every dollar counts, pieces of the design are no longer in your control, etc.

If the contractor doesn't like our time table to provide them fixes they are well within their contract to hire a third party engineer and submit it as a delegated design with signed and sealed calculations and drawings for review.

 

[phamENG]

Wow...you get away with 10 days? Time to rewrite that section of my contracts...

Celt - is that restart fee fixed or charged hourly? Based on the size of the job?

MSL - I'm trying to do the same. I'm still peering frightfully over the edge of expansion and hiring, but I'll jump (or fall) over that edge eventually.

Lo - what is it with Septic guys? Half my town has non-functioning treatment systems (swampy clays that don't perc) because of a guy who came in, sold a bill of goods for half the price of everyone else, did less than half the job, and then got sanctioned and run out of town.

 

[milkshakelake]

@Celt83 I think we're largely in agreement. If a hot item pops up, sometimes you need to deal with it right away. Most of the time, you need to stick to the contract, which I also do. I'm just talking about those hot items, which pop up far more frequently than one would like. Rather than go with the status quo of not responding right away, I do. If it's a change in the design that would take a long time to resolve, it's not possible and it shouldn't be rushed. There's also the aspect where client will prefer an expensive, quick solution over a well-engineered but cheaper one. For example, if I know that a lot of extra rebar will solve a problem and won't mess up other things like stiffness distribution, I'll just do it rather than calculate it. Of course, I'll explain the implications of doing it that way first instead of a fully engineered solution.

One example that stuck with me was a client that came to me and said that his previous engineer took one week to respond about substituting an anchor bolt for facade connections. He couldn't do the facade for a week because the engineer didn't approve the substitution, and eventually did. That was the last straw for the client and he ran to me for all of his future projects.

@phamENG Some unsolicited advice about that is to get all your standards, training, and employee procedures in line before you jump off that ledge. I have the benefit of hindsight and wish I did that 6 years ago. Instead, it's been a mess figuring it out as I went along. You can always adjust stuff, but it's better to start with a solid foundation.

 

[phamENG]

Thanks, milkshakelake. That's the plan. I've already warned most of my clients that I'm going to disappear for the next couple of months - only doing enough to (barely) keep the lights on and handling CA. The rest of the time will be spent on putting my procedures and standards in writing.

 

[Celt83]

restart fee is generally lump sum to be determined at the time the project comes back to life as the conditions under which that happens are highly variable. Once we are back into the job we would then pick billing back up in the phases that are left. Contracts typically written with well defined project phases for SD, DD, CD, and CA and have a clause for those projects that went on hold longer than a few months that we can exercise to ramp up the remaining base fees by 3-4% in addition to the restart fee(have yet to lean on this).

The real problem projects are the ones that disappeared at DD and then you get a random call from a contractor 1-2 yrs later asking questions and telling you your drawings are garbage, was in a viscous cycle for a couple years early in my career with a client that routinely would do this, never did figure out how they got some of the jobs through permitting.

 

[phamENG]

never did figure out how they got some of the jobs through permitting.

Now they only need one sealed project and a good PDF editor. Before PDF submissions...scissors, tape, and access to a scanner.

 

[rb1957]

that is I think the balancing act ... a quick response means a happier customer and maybe more business.

if it is quick and simple, then don't make a mountain out of it ... if you sink 1/2 hr to 1 hr into a quick answer to satisfy the customer then why not.

if the issue is complicated then explain to the client that it'll need a contract revision because it isn't QED and you don't have the time to drop tools on your other jobs. If they had kept you appraised of progress (and maybe had a "sustaining support" element in the original contract) then you'd be in a better position to respond.

Maybe discuss support options with the original contract, when it'll no doubt be "we don't need that", and you can point to this later.

"Hoffen wir mal, dass alles gut geht !"
General Paulus, Nov 1942, outside Stalingrad after the launch of Operation Uranus.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Not sure. I've worked for two companies that handled this differently:
1) A company (large industrial engineering) where the request would never have come directly to me. Instead it would have come through a "project manager". If it did, then I would have to respond to my project manager about what it would cost in time and effort. They'd handle the financial side.

2) A relatively small company (less than 20 employees) where the request would be made as an RFI (Request for Information). Often this would come from the contractor rather than the owner. I'd be expected to respond to the request relatively quickly. But, that doesn't mean I'd issue new drawings or do new calculations. Sometimes, it would just be a response saying that the propose change is NOT covered by the current construction drawings and calculations and that additional work would be required.

Usually, I'd evaluate my response and talk to the head of the company and one of us would either decide that this was included in our contract work or it was not. If it wasn't we'd sketch out a scope of work and cost and send it to whoever is paying us for the work along with the RFI. Internally, we'd itemize the expected costs and such. But, we'd only send them a lump sum estimate for the work. We learned not to itemize it for the client because then they might "haggle" over individual line items. Give them the lump sum and they can't really do that.

 

[phamENG]

if you sink 1/2 hr to 1 hr into a quick answer to satisfy the customer then why not.

It's not the payment I'm worried about - it's the time. I'm a one man show right now, so those hours add up quickly. And it's usually more than just an hour. It's time to pull the file, review the drawings, review the proposed change, schedule a site visit, do the work, and issue a response (maybe a quick email, maybe a drawing revision). So that's anywhere from 1/2 hour swapping out a Hilti adhesive for Simpson to needing 3 or 4 days to do something properly. If I know the work is coming - when I'm informed of jobs going into construction, I request the schedule and put in some 'fluff' time to give myself a buffer for these thing - it's not that bad. But when they hit my desk as an "emergency" that I don't know is happening, even the 1 or 2 hour responses can put a big wrench in things.

 

[jerseyshore]

For your top clients you want to respond right away. For the one-off homeowner it's okay to tell them you can't get out there for a week. For the people in between I might stall for a day or two. Tell them to send me some photos. Follow up that email with a couple of more questions. Tell them you already have pre-scheduled site visits that you can't bump. Just to buy a little bit of time. Obviously this doesn't always work and depends on workload and size, but sometimes all you need is a couple of days.

Most times though, just being honest with the client is best way to go about things. If you say listen I will absolutely get it to you by Monday, that's way better than saying I might be able to send you something tonight, or maybe tomorrow, but then not finishing. For most jobs there are plenty of other things they can do and giving them a hard date that you know you can hit helps a GC or owner plan their construction schedule.

 

[dold]

Wow...you get away with 10 days? Time to rewrite that section of my contracts...

This is actually in AISC's Code of Standard Practice for Steel Buildings and Bridges. In the 14th edition of AISC 360 it's on page 16.3-21, section 4.4. I recall us having to dig that out one time when we were getting flamed by an owner, even though it was in our specs/drawings. 14 Calendar days is allowed. But I guess that only applies to steel buildings designed under this code?

 

[MotorCity]

I guess I see this as more of a pretty clear cut issue.
If the client calls and requests a clarification on your design or asks you to fix an error in your design, then you certainly have a duty to oblige.
But if the client is requesting a change that someone other than you initiated, this is additional effort and therefore additional compensation for you. You have every right to deny this request for whatever reason....you're too busy, don't want the work, etc. Otherwise, if you value this client and wish to keep them as a client, you might give the request serious consideration.

 

[phamENG]

MotorCity - sorry if my question wasn't clear. I agree I have a duty to respond...I'm trying to gauge the standard for how long it takes, especially when I don't even know that construction has started.

A related question, perhaps - does the owner/GC/client have a duty to inform me that a building I designed has entered construction? My guess is no, but I'd love to be proven wrong!

 

[MotorCity]

phamENG - Got it. I thought you were debating whether or not you had an obligation to entertain the change (presumably the change request was made after you fulfilled your contractual obligations?). I don't think it is a reasonable request for anybody to ask you to drop everything and come put out the fire. One of my favorite quotes...."a lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on my part". I would respond to the request in 1 to 3 business days and let them know what you CAN commit to....be on site in 2 days, 2 weeks, etc.
As for letting you know that construction started, I see it as a professional courtesy but not a requirement. Once construction starts, you're out of the picture if your services are no longer needed.