It would seem unlikely to me that the they would have written the law clearly enough to show that this was actually a violation of the letter of the law. But then, I notice not much argument from the Volkswagen people on that point, either. They could be saying, "Well, technically, it's not a violation of the law, it's just the way the engine works." And they're not.
Tek-Tips is the largest IT community on the Internet today!
Members share and learn making Tek-Tips Forums the best source of peer-reviewed technical information on the Internet!
-
Congratulations cowski on being selected by the Eng-Tips community for having the most helpful posts in the forums last week. Way to Go!
EPA & Volkswagen 20
- Thread starter SomptingGuy
- Start date
- Status
- Thread starter
- #23
SomptingGuy
Automotive
It's always interesting to see how the newspapers and other media report these stories. I read today an allegation that VW were "cheating during the tests by squirting in urea to mop up the pollution". That's how the average person and the politicians will understand this.
Steve
Steve
-
1
- #24
"It would seem unlikely to me that the they would have written the law clearly enough to show that this was actually a violation of the letter of the law. "
Assuming that the EPA is correct regarding the actual facts, it's pretty clear VW violated the law with malice and forethought. They supposed wrote software that specifically detected the EPA test conditions and only turned on the smog controls during those times. Since they passed the testing using the smog controls, turning them off at any other time is clear violation of 7522(a)(3)(B):
"(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;"
The test is not the regulation; it's merely the compliance test. If it can be shown by other testing, which is what the EPA did, that it fails to comply with the smog regulations, AND if it can be shown that VW turned off or disabled parts of the smog control system unless it was under one specific test condition, then they more definitely violated the law. Both VW's silence on the subject and the pounding of their stock indicates pretty much near complete agreement from all interested parties that the law was violated. This is, of course, also confirmed by VW's apology, which indicates that they are busy looking for the lowest level scapegoats they can find at this time for falling on their swords.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
Assuming that the EPA is correct regarding the actual facts, it's pretty clear VW violated the law with malice and forethought. They supposed wrote software that specifically detected the EPA test conditions and only turned on the smog controls during those times. Since they passed the testing using the smog controls, turning them off at any other time is clear violation of 7522(a)(3)(B):
"(B) for any person to manufacture or sell, or offer to sell, or install, any part or component intended for use with, or as part of, any motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine, where a principal effect of the part or component is to bypass, defeat, or render inoperative any device or element of design installed on or in a motor vehicle or motor vehicle engine in compliance with regulations under this subchapter, and where the person knows or should know that such part or component is being offered for sale or installed for such use or put to such use;"
The test is not the regulation; it's merely the compliance test. If it can be shown by other testing, which is what the EPA did, that it fails to comply with the smog regulations, AND if it can be shown that VW turned off or disabled parts of the smog control system unless it was under one specific test condition, then they more definitely violated the law. Both VW's silence on the subject and the pounding of their stock indicates pretty much near complete agreement from all interested parties that the law was violated. This is, of course, also confirmed by VW's apology, which indicates that they are busy looking for the lowest level scapegoats they can find at this time for falling on their swords.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
IRstuff said:
I suspect that the culprit here is that the vast majority of the gas sold in the US today is at least a 10% ethanol blend. At the same time the EPA mileage tests are done using 100% gasoline. That is, NO alcohol, which means that of course the average mileage will be somewhat better since the BTU, or heating value, of alcohol is significantly lower than gasoline, as discussed in the article below:
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Shouldn't be an issue in this particular case though right John.
Posting guidelines faq731-376 (probably not aimed specifically at you)
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
I'll admit that that IS true, but if you reread IRstuff's post that I was responding to, I at least took it as not being specific to the VW issue. Rather, I saw it to be a general comment about the whole EPA Emissions/Mileage program and the publishing of their subsequent test results. And since the vast majority of cars being driven in this country are NOT diesel powered, when he wrote "most people complain" I took that as another node toward drivers of gasoline powered vehicles.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
The public seem to be painting all German and some other European brands with heavy diesel production with a broad brush. While VW share valuation is down the most, BMW, Mercedes, Renault and Peugeot are also down. Interestingly, it does not seem to have affected Fiat/Chrysler or GM even though both have light duty pickups with diesels.
VW can easily bring these vehicles into compliance given that the vehicles do meet emissions standards when tested, all they have to do is get rid of the code that changes the fueling when it detects it's not under test. This is really quite similar to the EPA - heavy duty truck industry lawsuit a decade or so ago. The heavy duty truck industry simply increased the injection timing when the control unit detected that the truck was under steady state cruising in top gear. Driving the test cycle they were in compliance. The big difference here seems to be VW used the steering input as well as load/gear changes to determine if the vehicle was on rollers to indicate a test cycle. The trucking industry lost the law suit but I don't think they faced these huge fines.
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
VW can easily bring these vehicles into compliance given that the vehicles do meet emissions standards when tested, all they have to do is get rid of the code that changes the fueling when it detects it's not under test. This is really quite similar to the EPA - heavy duty truck industry lawsuit a decade or so ago. The heavy duty truck industry simply increased the injection timing when the control unit detected that the truck was under steady state cruising in top gear. Driving the test cycle they were in compliance. The big difference here seems to be VW used the steering input as well as load/gear changes to determine if the vehicle was on rollers to indicate a test cycle. The trucking industry lost the law suit but I don't think they faced these huge fines.
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
BrianPetersen
Mechanical
While it's true that VW could change the programming to eliminate the "switch" as the EPA calls it, what isn't known is what the results of that would be. There would have had to be a strong reason for VW to have programmed the "switch" logic in with the intent that the car essentially never operates in "low emission" mode on the road (just as in Europe, it essentially never operates within the very low speed and load bounds prescribed by NEDC).
I have a funny feeling that the DPF will not pass the durability requirements if they operate in low-emissions mode (due to the engine having to run slightly rich much more frequently to properly regenerate the lean-NOx filter and with a lot more EGR, which would encourage sooty combustion conditions).
If they can not pass the durability requirements, or some semblance of them, they are in a world of hurt. One would hope this would result in a negotiation of a longer and stronger emission control system warranty that covers more than just the "catalytic converter" and gets extended to every piece of the car, no matter how small or how unrelated, that has anything whatsoever to do with emission control. Taking the car in for a new DPF every (say) 50,000 km would be a pain, warranty or otherwise, and when that emissions warranty is up, the car goes to the scrap heap.
I have a funny feeling that the DPF will not pass the durability requirements if they operate in low-emissions mode (due to the engine having to run slightly rich much more frequently to properly regenerate the lean-NOx filter and with a lot more EGR, which would encourage sooty combustion conditions).
If they can not pass the durability requirements, or some semblance of them, they are in a world of hurt. One would hope this would result in a negotiation of a longer and stronger emission control system warranty that covers more than just the "catalytic converter" and gets extended to every piece of the car, no matter how small or how unrelated, that has anything whatsoever to do with emission control. Taking the car in for a new DPF every (say) 50,000 km would be a pain, warranty or otherwise, and when that emissions warranty is up, the car goes to the scrap heap.
btrueblood
Mechanical
I suppose the US gov't or California's could mandate that owners get the ECU flash updated, or face not getting their car license tabs at the next smog test. But barring that penalty (and how would the emissions test station check? Via software? Who provides the software for checking, VW? Would you trust them now?), why would any rational VW diesel owner bother to get the update if the result was poorer mileage or performance?
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
The first of what I assume will be many shoes has dropped:
Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn Resigns Amid Diesel Scandal
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn Resigns Amid Diesel Scandal
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
John,
Yes, I was hinting that maybe the fuel economy tests could equally have been jimmied. But, it turns out that there's an easier way around that. Apparently, auto makers can do self-tests and report the mileage to the EPA. Hyundai apparently overstated their mileage and eventually got caught. Not a testing error, since EVERY correction resulted in decreased gas mileage, and not minor errors, since at least one car model was overstated by 5 mpg out of 30-something, so nearly 15% error, on a test that's supposed to be accurate to less than 1 mpg, given that Hyundai had to correct a bunch of mileage numbers by 1 or 2 mpg.
As for VW, yes, there may be perfectly sound reasons to turn off the smog control, but in the US, that's just illegal, and other companies with diesel cars either have figured out how to do it without gross degradation of life, or their approach to disabling the smog controls haven't been caught yet.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
Yes, I was hinting that maybe the fuel economy tests could equally have been jimmied. But, it turns out that there's an easier way around that. Apparently, auto makers can do self-tests and report the mileage to the EPA. Hyundai apparently overstated their mileage and eventually got caught. Not a testing error, since EVERY correction resulted in decreased gas mileage, and not minor errors, since at least one car model was overstated by 5 mpg out of 30-something, so nearly 15% error, on a test that's supposed to be accurate to less than 1 mpg, given that Hyundai had to correct a bunch of mileage numbers by 1 or 2 mpg.
As for VW, yes, there may be perfectly sound reasons to turn off the smog control, but in the US, that's just illegal, and other companies with diesel cars either have figured out how to do it without gross degradation of life, or their approach to disabling the smog controls haven't been caught yet.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
- Thread starter
- #33
SomptingGuy
Automotive
So when Joe American Public gets a recall letter for his affected VW and decides to ignore it (I would), I wonder what the next step is. I can't imagine the annual smog tests differentiate old cars from new.
Steve
Steve
I've seen several reports that VW was saving about $400 per car by not having urea injection & the proper catalysts and that other automobile manufactures could not figure out how they could both pass emissions and get great performance & fuel economy with the hardware they were using. So I don't think other car companies are doing the same thing.
If they have to prove a reflash does not cause emissions system degradation then it will be a long time before any of these cars can be brought into compliance. Those tests must take ~3000 hours to run. Even when they have a recall ready to go I'll bet a lot of owners will not get it done. Most of them are not going to want to give up performance and fuel economy just for cleaner exhaust.
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
If they have to prove a reflash does not cause emissions system degradation then it will be a long time before any of these cars can be brought into compliance. Those tests must take ~3000 hours to run. Even when they have a recall ready to go I'll bet a lot of owners will not get it done. Most of them are not going to want to give up performance and fuel economy just for cleaner exhaust.
----------------------------------------
The Help for this program was created in Windows Help format, which depends on a feature that isn't included in this version of Windows.
well, in California, you must smog test every other year, so the most you could stall is 2 yrs, because someone will come up with a new test, and if you do not have the recall implemented, you'll either get a fix-it ticket to get it fixed, or they'll just fine your butt until you comply. Either way, all affected cars will wind up getting fixed within the next 3 yrs.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
SomptingGuy said:
They certainly do, at least here in California. When our youngest son finished high school (some 19 years ago) we bought him an old VW Karmann Ghia (wish I still had that car) which just slipped under the age for testing. At the time, I think it was anything manufactured before 1974 was basically exempt since cars that old were considered to be 'classics'. However, newer cars have to pass stricter tests than older one, even those not considered classics and thus still required to pass the semi-annual smog-test.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
- Thread starter
- #37
SomptingGuy
Automotive
... by "old" John, I mean like my car. It's 2004 and under our system, would only have been Euro 3 compliant when new. Which is probably not that different from what the affected VWs are actually putting out in terms of NOx.
The only smog test I had (in IL) was a joke. I think I might have failed had they measured inside my car rather than up its exhaust pipe.
Steve
The only smog test I had (in IL) was a joke. I think I might have failed had they measured inside my car rather than up its exhaust pipe.
Steve
JohnRBaker
Mechanical
Here in California they're pretty strict, but it's better than when we first moved here when even new cars had to be tested. Now, unless the car is being brought in from out-of-state, you don't to have to have it tested for the first six years (but you'll still be charged an annual 'smog abatement' fee) and then only semi-annual testing is required after that. Now some counties in the state require that any time a car is sold that it be tested before the registration can be transferred (this doesn't apply if the car is four years old or newer, or when you trade a car in when buying a new one as you're not actually selling it to the new owner, that will be the dealer's responsibility when and if they eventually resell the car). BTW, I just checked and 1975 or older gasoline powered cars are now exempt as well as diesel powered cars from 1997 or earlier model years.
And for the record, the effort seems to be paying off.
When we first moved to SoCal from Michigan back in 1980 the smog here was terrible. There were frequent smog alerts where you were asked to avoid any unnecessary driving, school kids were not allowed outside for recess, outdoor events were cancelled, etc. We haven't had one of those in 15+ years at least. We arrived here in late-August and it wasn't until December, when we started to get some rain, that the air cleared up enough that we even noticed the San Bernardino mountains, just 30 miles or so away.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
And for the record, the effort seems to be paying off.
When we first moved to SoCal from Michigan back in 1980 the smog here was terrible. There were frequent smog alerts where you were asked to avoid any unnecessary driving, school kids were not allowed outside for recess, outdoor events were cancelled, etc. We haven't had one of those in 15+ years at least. We arrived here in late-August and it wasn't until December, when we started to get some rain, that the air cleared up enough that we even noticed the San Bernardino mountains, just 30 miles or so away.
John R. Baker, P.E.
Product 'Evangelist'
Product Engineering Software
Siemens PLM Software Inc.
Digital Factory
Cypress, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:
To an Engineer, the glass is twice as big as it needs to be.
Everything is relative, sadly. While we haven't had Stage 3s in a while, we still have the worst smog of coastal cities. The Central Valley has it worse for some measures. I just flew in this afternoon, and air still had the old distinct brownish haze.
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
TTFN
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!
homework forum: //faq731-376 forum1529
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Question
