Ethical/Legal Concern 5

[cancmm]

We recently had some staff members leave our company to start up their own consulting firm. They left without any notice and have made our jobs rather difficult trying to compensate for their abrupt loss. Their new company website has since come online and it is apparent that they are now our local competition. What is concerning is that they use many figures and models on their website that are taken from work they did while employed with our firm (obviously without permission). They don't specifically give project names, but the work is blatantly from projects we are currently working on or have in the past.

I would like to know what action is appropriate? Should an ethics complaint be filed with the state engineering board? Can legal action be taken?

Thanks!

 

[ajack1]

Speak to a lawyer.

 

[zdas04]

Speak to a lawyer.

 

[IRstuff]

Speak to a lawyer, sooner than later.

The longer you wait, the more likely is the argument that you didn't care, didn't notice, or weren't affected.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JAE]

I agree a lawyer might be in order.

Keep in mind a couple of things:

1. Them leaving and making your job tough is unrelated to the ethical/legal question you raise about their use of previous projects in their marketing.

2. There is a difference between someone using photos, drawings, models, etc. that were developed by your firm vs. them using project experience gained at your firm to market themselves. They can and should use their experience for marketing. They perhaps "steal" by using materials to illustrate that same experience.

 

[cancmm]

Lawyer has been contacted already and they are reviewing our case. Just trying to see if any of you had similar situations and what the outcome was.

In regards to making my job "tough", that was just venting. It wasn't intended as a valid reason for dispute or claim.

Since the legal side is covered, is there a general consensus for or against the movement of notifying the engineering board based on ethical concerns? It seems that any sort of "illegal" activity would be default be considered unethical.

 

[msquared48]

In similar cases I have seen, the leaving and forming was very open and above board. There were no hard feelings.

That being said, if they are marketing to your clients they met while in your employment, that could be considered unethical, depending on any signed employee contracts, posted employee guidelines, the timeline and market focus.

You could make a phone call to your board and set up a hypothetical situation to them. If there are found to be grounds, then you could pursue it. However, just make sure that you do not have any skeletons in your closet you don't want exposed as it will get dirty... guaranteed.

It would be much better in the long run though if you could just do a better job for your clients than you competition.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[cancmm]

I agree. It's speculated that some current clients of ours may be attempted to be "taken", but it is too early to tell. Better to let the dust settle a bit and move forward from there. There are no current plans for ethical complaints, but we are just trying to figure out what our options are should we need to move in that direction.

 

[photoengineer]

Filing an ethical complaint would be a bad idea in my opinion.

First of all, I'm not sure that using figures and models on a website without permission would fall under the jursidiction of a state board. It probably depends on which board. Where I'm registered it wouldn't. In some states that are picky, it probably would. (The state that I am licensed is very concerned with unlicensed practice, poor quality engineering, failed engineering projects, etc. It doesn't like to get involved in tiffs between two companies or an company and client unless poor engineering was involved.)

Second, the complaint would become public record. In my opinion, filing complaints is a not a good way of drumming up new business.

Third, you would have to provide evidence of the fact that the figures and sketches came from your own computing systems and that there are policies in place that govern the release of the pictures.

For example - are they included in any reports submitted to state or local government? If so, these are now in the public domain and likely can be used by anybody.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[jmw]

You might consider postiing the same material on your website and "take ownership" of those projects.
They can't complain.
It may be that some of that material is copywrite?

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[rbulsara]

Only lawyers will make money. Your ex-colleagues will remain your competition even after the lawsuit is over.

Unless your co. had written contracts and "enforceable" non-compete clause, there is little to stand on.

Also the stuff they are using has to be unique to your co and copy righted. If they are run of the mill models that any reasonable consultant would be able to come up with (read rocket science), you may not have much of the case.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[rowingengineer]

JWM, That is a top notch solution.

Arguing with an engineer is like wrestling with a pig in mud. After a while you realize that they like it

 

[TheTick]

Most likely the material will be viewed as your firm's property. I can't imagine an employer so lax as to not have that spelled out in an employment agreement. Even without an agreement, the law is likely on your side.

An attorney can get pretty quick action, perhaps even an injunction.

As far as how you appear to the public, how does it look to not defend your property or your clients' information?

 

[Compositepro]

What the lawyer is reviewing is how much money he thinks he can make from you. The merits of the case have little to do with this unless his fee is contingent on winning. It is very unlikely any lawyer will take a case like yours on contingency. Cut your losses now rather than later.You have to ask yourself why these others felt it was better to leave that way than to stay.

 

[photoengineer]

TheTick,

It depends on what he is calling "figures and models".

I can't tell if he means that the models, drawings, sketches were created by his old company or created by others of projects the company worked on. I also don't know if they are still owned by the company or are now owned by others (i.e., city purchased pictures of models for use in brochure).

In other words, I can't tell if the pictures were stolen from the company or are simply of projects the company was involved with.

Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[TheTick]

Yeah, no one can really tell from where we're sitting. Still, the OP probably still has a lot on his side. The phrase breach of fiduciary duty comes to mind. Those that left almost certainly made the decision to take the material in question while still employees.

 

[BRGENG]

I had a similar situation when the company I left posted my resume on their new website (see post). They removed most of my information but I noticed they still have lots of projects, plans and photo's of jobs that was done by their employees before they came to work there.

Is it personal experience, yes. Is it company experience, yes and no. The Company did not do it but the people there did so as a firm they have the experience through their employees. So it is a delicate balance when you show work you did while employed at another firm or show work of your employees on your website. But it is your experience.

As for taking information, make sure you can prove it. Models and drawings can be recreated and you would have a very difficult time proving they did not recreate it. Photos could have been taken with a personal camera or phone and a copy left at the office but they kept the original since it was theirs. A model or drawing can be recreated in hours. Could they have got the information from your client? Most likely they have a strong relationship with them and they may have given them the information since technically it is there’s to give away if they paid you for it.

While you think they may have taken it, proving it is very different. As msquared48 said, make sure you don't have any skeletons in your closet because most likely your former employees are well aware of them and have the proof if for some reason you filled a lawsuit. But his best comment is that you just need to do a better job for your clients then your competition.

Was your job difficult because no one else in the office could do what they did or was it a staffing and time issue? It is always best to keep with what you do best, when you try to get by is when you are not providing a better product then your competition.

 

[photoengineer]

I think BRGENG sums it up well. I cannot imagine engineers would simply take copies of files stored on work computers and post them on a website as examples of their work.

But I can imagine that if an employee did structural design on CityCenter Las Vegas while at the previous company, they might use a picture of CityCenter Las Vegas on their website as an example of their work. It's certainly be acceptable to post a public domain (or one they took on their own) of CityCenter on their website.



Cedar Bluff Engineering

http://cedarbluffengineering.webs.com

 

[EEinTexas]

Because you see a lot of this with websites and people moving every couple of years I always ask a new consultant we are looking to hire a series of questions.

1) What projects similar to this have you done in the past 3 years?
2) Who here worked on that project?
3) Who was the Engineering (or Architect) of record?
4) Was it done at this firm or another?

If the Engineer of Record is not there I have a lot more questions to ask. Especially in this economy, people will take any job and then try to figure out what they need to do if they don’t know. Just remember, Low Bidder is seldom the best qualified. For every buck you save you will probably loss 5 in the future.