Legal/ Ethical question 6

[vlad1981]

Howdy everybody
I got a question, is more related to the legality/ ethical aspect of the profession.
I wok for a company, whose main line is shoring and reshoring of concrete, many contractors can choose to stamp their own drawings, many have their own technical department. As a general rule, I stamp all drawings we provide, shoring & formwork, and the contractor hires an engineer for the reshoring drawings (all comes down to liability, and what part of the process my company wants to be involved with).
Now, I got this project, in which we are using a fairly new system, I've stamped all the drawings and calculations, and send over to contractor, generally contractor will use this same drawings so the reshoring engineer can produce his part (reshoring).
Turns out, I just discovered the reshoring engineer is removing my stamp (don't know how) and putting his own stamp on it.
There are two main things to it:
1. He is not familiar with the system, as such he should not stamp it.
2. He may claim is his "work" and add it to his portfolio, when in reality is not.
Thoughts?
Is the above legal?? Ethical, I know for a fact is not, but what can I do?
Should I try to contact said engineer or just go straight to the FBPE and file some claim?
Please, advise.
Location: Florida.

 

[IRstuff]

In some jurisdictions the engineer's seal provides copyright protection.

US copyright law is valid without seal; the mere act of publication provides copyright.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[dik]

thanks...

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[CWB1]

In some jurisdictions the engineer's seal provides copyright protection.

Stateside, all IP created by employees is the employer's property by default. If an employee wants to provide services or design their own product after-hours their employer needs to sign a legal release granting them IP rights. Steve Wozniak and a few other famous brains love joking that their former employers' worst business decisions were granting them IP rights.

Similarly, IP created while contracted to a client is the client's by default. Unless contracts explicitly state otherwise, in the case of a client hiring an engineering firm employing an engineer, the client owns the IP and neither the firm nor employee can reuse without permission. Many confuse this scenario with leasing a client rights to use a pre-existing design which is owned by either the employer or engineer.

 

[CWB1]

There are hundreds of examples where engineers "suspect" there is a safety issue for the public and approach the relevant engineers, authorities or the state board of engineering, with their concerns. These are not lawsuits, complaints, or legal attestations that a crime has been committed. They are simply asking the board to investigate a suspicious situation - to inquire.

Every non-hypothetical presented to a regulator is a complaint, a legal attestation punishable if found untrue. Without documented complaints regulators dont have the legal authority to spend time or money reviewing their validity before beginning either a voluntary (inquiry) or involuntary enforcement process (investigation). Mandatory reporting laws stateside do not and cannot require anybody to report suspicion, only specific facts establishing reasonable certainty of a crime. The same laws also require professionals give due-diligence and establish reasonable certainty before filing frivolous claims which does not appear to be the case here.

If the other engineer has reviewed the work and is assuming responsibility for the design then they would be correct in stamping, this happens daily. If there's also no IP issues there's no valid complaint.

 

[MTNClimber]

CWB1 - I’m not sure what your experience is with the PE board in your area, but in my area, they don’t get paid. They are all volunteers, and they are all willing to talk about possible violations of the rules and regulations governing professional engineers.

 

[JAE]

”Every non-hypothetical presented to a regulator is a complaint, a legal attestation punishable if found untrue."
In the 27 states I’ve been licensed in there are numerous complaints filed every month in which the board investigates, then finds no issue and dismisses it. No recourse to a countersuit to a PE who filed the complaint occurs. The PE filing the complaint has the freedom to do this and is in many states required to do so if they suspect foul play. The Texas board, for example, even allows anonymous complaints.

Without documented complaints regulators don’t have the legal authority to spend time or money reviewing their validity before beginning either a voluntary (inquiry) or involuntary enforcement process (investigation). “
There are many states that do allow their boards to initiate investigations (self-complaint action by the board itself). See Nebraska regulation 8.1.4: A complaint or compliance issue against any person or organization may be brought in the name of the Board. A complaint may be filed by the Executive Director when he or she discovers a probable violation of the Act. If a Board member discovers a probable violation of the Act, the member may bring it to the Executive Director’s attention.

”Mandatory reporting laws stateside do not and cannot require anybody to report suspicion, only specific facts establishing reasonable certainty of a crime. The same laws also require professionals give due-diligence and establish reasonable certainty before filing frivolous claims which does not appear to be the case here.”
We agree that suspicion isn’t enough. In the case of this particular example in the OP, there is a bit more than just suspicion. Engineer A knows for a fact that Engineer B removed his seal. He knows also for a fact that Engineer B applied their own seal to A’s work. That’s not suspicion. In Nebraska, for example, they require Engineer B to obtain written consent from Engineer A to supplant the original seal. (See rules 6.2.1.1). No such consent here in the OP was given. Therefore, at least in Nebraska, a possible violation would be apparent.

Another example from Ohio’s board’s Code of Ethics: If the engineer or surveyor has knowledge or reason to believe that another person or firm is guilty of violating any of the provisions of Chapter 4733 of the Revised Code, or any of these rules of professional conduct, he or she shall present this information to the board in writing.. Note the SHALL here. We as engineers must report to the board if we believe there’s a risk to public safety.

”If the other engineer has reviewed the work and is assuming responsibility for the design then they would be correct in stamping, this happens daily. If there's also no IP issues there's no valid complaint.”
I agree with the first part…IF they did the due diligence. The second statement is incorrect – totally. It’s not IP issues….it’s professional conduct issues.

Engineers in the US are a self-governed body based on our professional ethics code and state regulations as to proper engineering practice. We have a separate process, in all 50 states, to govern ourselves in our practice of engineering – separate from the courts/lawyers and lawsuits. These complaints filed to boards are almost all NOT involved with IP issues but with practice/ethics issues.

Perhaps as a final consideration, Texas includes this in one of their FAQ’s:
Question: Do I need to notify the board if I believe that someone has violated the Texas Engineering Practice Act or Board rules?
Answer: License holders shall first notify involved parties or the Board of any engineering decisions or practices that might endanger the health, safety, property, or welfare of the public. When, in an engineer's judgment, any risk to the public remains, unresolved, that engineer shall report any fraud, gross negligence, incompetence, misconduct, unethical or illegal conduct to the Board or proper civil or criminal authorities. Refer to Board Rule 137.55(c).

I think the bottom line is that the OP here should directly contact the other engineer and discuss the situation. If the other engineer blows them off, then they should (MUST) contact the board.

 

[CWB1]

They are all volunteers, and they are all willing to talk about possible violations of the rules and regulations governing professional engineers.

To clarify, I'm not against a carefully-worded hypothetical given additional evidence but I would never treat them as peers and always try to resolve questions/concerns without involving them. All regulators paid or unpaid are held to govt ethics and accountability laws, generally busy, and face as much scrutiny/accusations for leniency as enforcement. Consequently, non-hypothetical discussions will be treated the same as formal written complaints and investigated bc regulators are mandatory reporters. There will be costs for documentation/databases, attorneys, supporting staff, etc. The OP's employer, the other engineer, and likely their customer will be contacted; likely one or more will respond through their own attorneys. If the accusation is found to be frivolous and nobody complains the regulator may risk dropping the case but if the employer, customer, or other engineer demand it the OP will be censured and could face a lawsuit. If the OP also failed to notify the other engineer as mentioned in the original post or failed to notify their employer as several suggested above, that would be a second ethics violation. Given the facts claimed I dont have any concerns about the "other" engineer, only the OP and several others in this thread as they dont appear to understand basic civics, nevermind practice.