Ethics, what advice do you have? 5

[Lions]

I want to run a hypothetical situation past the professionals on this forum for a “what would you do” answer.

A truss designer of limited experience joins a company and over time, realizes there is a big problem. He designes, permits, and has built houses that have never been reviewed by a real engineer. Not to say the company doesn’t have a real engineer, but this engineer has never actually physically seen any of these drawings. He relies on the individual truss designers, to use their judgment on what works and what does not. Thousands of homes have been built this way, and countless problems have occurred. The company has done an Enron style cover up for so long, they have it down to a science. Now, the designer does not have an engineering degree, and doesn’t know quite how to begin to approach this problem, so he sits on it, trying to figure out what to do. He knows when/if this is made public, he has inadvertently become an accomplice to this and is scared out of his mind. He has a family and needs to support them, but he wants to do what is right, but he doesn’t know what the right thing is. What advice would you give him? Remember, this is all hypothetical.

 

[IRstuff]

Why doesn't the truss designer take one of the questionable designs and ask the engineer to review for correctness?

It could be posed as a simply a desire to understand the safety factors used in the previous design.

TTFN

 

[JAE]

Lions,

Two presuppositions here:

First, the assumption that a licensed engineer is required by law, and thus compels and ethical response on the truss designer, is not necessarily correct. For most states in the US, a home is not required to have a licensed engineer designer. So the legal compulsion to "be ethical" here may not apply.

Second, the assumption that the engineer in the company doesn't see the designs, but relies on the truss designers to do their designs correctly, can definitely be construed as an ethical issue. The company is selling a product to the public, and public safety is affected. If the product is flawed, or the process that develops the product is flawed (evidenced by "countless problems"), then it may be a compelling reason for the truss designer to approach the engineer and suggest that the Quality Assurance/Quality Control within the company may be in need of repair.

After this discussion, whether the engineer/company takes appropriate action or not, the truss designer has 2 options,

1. Document the conversation, copy the conversation to the participants and go on with your work, or

2. Document the conversation, copy the conversation to the participants, and resign.

Ethically (in item 1 above) you can only go so far, as a truss designer, in changing the company. It then falls on your own conscience as to whether to continue to participate in their work.

 

[Lions]

Lets just say, for the sake of arguement, the designers dont know, have never met, and are not even sure said engineer even exists.When problems arise, the designers receive guidence from a senior designer, or are told to figure it out themselves.

I guess I was under the impression that if the engineer seals something, he should at least see it, not have the individual designers stamping drawings themselves, while he's retired living in another state.

 

[BJC]

Check the laws of the state where you are working and where the trusses are sold. In some states trusses for homes don't require an engineer (PE that is). In some ( California for I believe ).
If an engineer is required and he's not a "real" you have to turn them in to the state board of engineering.
This is the tough part. You have to have the facts straight. You cannot complain to most boards anomaliously. So the hypothetical designer may never work again.
Somewhere a higher than usual snowload may collapse a roof and kill people, do you want to be a part of that?
Owners and higher ups in a company are usually better protected than the peons. I believe at Enron some of the indians have gone to jail but the chiefs are still wondering around. Lots of "whistle blower" laws out there but they don't seem to be working.

 

[JAE]

This reminds me of a wood truss collapse that I was called in to investigate a few years ago. A farmer (hog farmer with a Construction Engineering degree from a major university) had decided to construct a large (80' x 350') hog confinement barn. It was all wood framed with insulated/plastic panels. The hogs lived in steel cages inside.

The roof collapsed one winter with a 36" drift on the leeward side. Hogs still all snug and warm underneath as the cages kept the roof from falling on them.

It ended up that the truss fabricator had "designed" the trusses for 20 psf live load....this barn was located in an area with a ground snow load of 45 psf. When depositioned, the truss designer stated that they "just put into the computer the standard roof live loads that they always did". The farmer had been asked "what kind of truss do you want" and he just replied "just a standard truss to span 80 feet".

The truss cut sheet was not sealed because this was an agricultural building so no code applied legally. But it goes to show that lots of wood trusses are designed with "computer operators" who don't really know what they are doing. And the engineer's supervising them don't really spend a lot of time reviewing / checking the designs.

 

[Lions]

If the state requires a raised / signed seal on every drawing, but the engineer is not doing it the designer is, and is doing so because thats what his management has told him to do, under agreement with said engineer, and these designes are not being reviewed by this engineer, is this wrong?

 

[BJC]

Lions
Call the board and ask them. You can ask anomaliously in most cases. You just can't file a formal complaint.
If something crooked is going on and you don't bring it to the attention of authorities you are generally culpable. See your attorney.

 

[JAE]

In most US states, the engineer who seals a design, can do so only if he is providing direct supervision over the design. Many states have strict definitions of "direct supervision".

If you suspect that an engineer is not providing this supervision, call the engineering board, discuss the details with them. They can give you the best advice as to what course of action is appropriate, legal, ethical, and proper. They can also tell you what "next steps" can be taken and the ramifications of those steps.

 

[plasgears]

Reminds me of a story DB Steinman told in his book, "Highways over Broad Waters" ed. by William Ratigan, Eerdmans, Grand Rapids, MI.

It was during his career of consulting, and he was called concerning a structural failure of top chords in a small suspension bridge, the Steubenville Bridge near Pittsburgh. When he met the designer he found out that the design was by rule of thumb rather than by detail calculations. He made several recommendations to the owner, and the recommended fix was shelved by the original designer. Later, the same failure occurred on the symmetric other side of the bridge. This time Steinman was engaged to fix the bridge.

The sour ending of the story is that the original designer blackballed Steinman when he applied to a professional society of consulting engineers. The book continues:

"...Steinman learned that among certain groups in the profession an engineer is supposed to whitewash and conceal unsafe or incompetent designs made by a fellow engineer. At this he balked, then and always."

 

[Lions]

The state is florida, and apearently my company has just caught wind that the designers are questioning our engineering practices. I'm not the only person asking/or that has asked these questions, and conducted reasearch for the correct answer. Our GM just got a call from corporate, they advised him their gonna "clean house (direct quote)" and replace all their designers at this location . Our GM was nice enough to give us notice of this because he's also our friend. Perhaps they read this forum, who knows, either way, I guess the "hypothetical" is out the window, and is now staring us in the face. Alot can happen in a day, Its a shame really...

 

[buzzp]

Thats sad. If they believe removing you from the house is required, then you know what you should do as your job will no longer be in jeopardy. Seems the easier solution, more ethical, and more practical would be to fire the GM. But now you know the type of company your working for. Don't be fooled into thinking that this is a rare company, unfortunately it is not. This is why I have problems with those that claim two weeks should always be given, and in general, that the company is the good guy. Good luck with your new job search.

 

[Ron]

Lions...in Florida the engineer has the responsibility to review, sign, and seal each document, including residential applications. He cannot delegate the responsibility nor can he get by with the scenario you have described. He should be reported to the Florida Board of Professional Engineers for investigation. (

http://www.fbpe.org)

Further, since this involves public activities, Florida has a "whistle-blower" statute that will protect you and your colleagues from adverse action by your employer. If any of these designs have been submitted to a public agency (which I'm sure they have) this statute will likely apply.

We do not need this type of activity in our profession. We have an ethical and statutory obligation to report such.

Kudos to you and your colleagues for your professional approach. Good luck and keep us informed.

Ron

 

[Lions]

I am not a licensed Engineer, so I am not sure I am bound by the same oath, or obligated under the same laws to take action, in the same manner some of you would be. But as a professional, I know what the right thing to do is, and I'm not sure I could live with myself knowing what I know now, and not taking some sort of action after reviewing your posts. But I am not so naive as to think I am above prosecution, or that I will ever find another job in this field after taking action, but I am not a coward, damn the torpedo’s. I have not had access to the advice of a real engineer as I should, but now that I do, I shall follow it. Thanks for the link, I have fired off a few emails to the people listed there, I hope they take this as seriously as myself. My financial situation does not permit me to hire a lawyer, so if anyone has one in mind that could help me, by all means post their number, Otherwise, I guess I'm rolling the dice. Life is not always easy in the panhandle.

 

[jsummerfield]

Each state differs. In Texas the home design is NOT EXEMPT IF the home has a total floor area EXCEEDING 5,000 square feet; OR contains a clear span between supporting structures greater than 24 feet on the narrow side. I think that this criteria also applies to buildings for private agricultural purposes. Public and commercial structures require an engineer to prepare/supervise the design documents.

John

 

[EddyC]

Lions,

You are to be commended for your courage and integrity. I wish that I had the same strength. I recommend that you copy some of the company documents that support your allegations. My current employer is performing engineering in a state that the design & managerial personnel are not licensed in. I have no involvement in the project but am licensed in the particular state in question. I am crossing my fingers and hoping that they don't ask me to "rubber stamp" the drawings. If they do, I'll tell them to go fly a kite. Luckily, I have enough finances to ride out a long period of unemployment if they retaliate.

 

[dozer]

Lions,

One thing I'm confused about. Does the company think that firing all of the designers is gonna solve the problem? From what I understand it's the company at fault here, not the designers. If this really does lead to your osterization from the field then we've got serious problems in our profession.

I'm hoping you will find the state board responsive. Keep us posted and hang in there.

 

[patdaly]

Lions, good luck, and I am not so sure if I were fired, that I would go quietly. In this instance, I would think that you would have some legal protection against summary firing. It is your superiors, not yourself who violated the law.

Let me also say thanks for being professional and standing up for the right thing, I have been there, and while it may not be plesant, you will sleep better at night ( at least I did )

 

[pba]

Lions,

I sounds like you have work colleagues in a similar situation and it sounds like your combined questioning of the 'management' is resulting in a harsh and unfair response from the company.

Collectively you and your colleagues need to approach the relevant authority. You will of course let the authority know that you were ignorant of the seriousness of the situation and that your recent questions were as a direct result of you becoming aware of the situation that you found yourself in.

I would hope that your industry is populated, in the most part, by companies who do have the proper engineering standards and that they would not have any problem employing either you or your colleagues. I wish you good luck.

 

[buzzp]

I would think (and hope) if you presented the info to someone higher up, even a board member, then the issue would be resolved the right way. I could be wrong, but I would try, then if nothing comes of it (like getting rid of the moron that made this decision), then go to the authorities. Chances are, someone higher up (maybe real high) does not know this is happening. I mean the fix is not that expensive and faced with this info getting out, I would think it would be recitified quickly and you might be a hero. But, I have seen morons all the way up to the chairman or CEO. Good luck.