Exempt Employee Blues 5

[miner00]

As most of you know, engineers are generally considered exempt employees under the FLSA. My question is if we have any rights under this act. In my situation, I have all of the negatives of an exempt employee (no paid overtime, no sick days, no maximum work week) but I also have the negatives of non-exempt ("punch time clock", set work hours). My main question is this:

Say you work a long week and by mid-day on Friday you have worked 44 hours. Further say that you want to take friday afternoon off to visit the doctor, beat traffic out of town, etc. Should you have to take 4 hours of vacation or sick time to leave early when you have already worked more than a 40 hour week? Would this qualify as a salary reduction and wouldn't we be protected against this?

I have no plans to act on this situation, but it would be helpful to know whether I am being taken advantage of in deciding future career plans.

 

[PSE]

Miner,

You may wish to check further with the department of labor for additional information but for all essential purposes, Exempt employees do not have rights under FLSA.

http://www.dol.gov/elaws/esa/flsa/screen75.asp

In terms of trying to gain some flexibility in your working hours such as in your example of working 44 hours by mid day friday and wanting to take the afternoon off, I would recommend talking with your boss on a case by case basis especially since you indicate that your company has set work hours. Hopefully you could work something out.

Since a salaried employee is compensated based upon a pay period rather than hourly, the comment that overtime equates to salary reduction does not really apply. You would be compensated the same amount if you had worked 36 hours in the week (not recommended from a job security standpoint). The perhaps unfortunate reality is there tends to be an expectation (at least with some employers that I have worked for) that it is "normal" to put in professional time in excess of a 40 hour week.

I was also in a situation where working overtime became "mandated" in order to meet a project deadline. At that time, those of us on the project were approached as to how we wished to be compensated for that time. I am not sure if FLSA applied to that situation or if other people have been in a similar situation.

Regards,

PSE

 

[JayMaechtlen]

Just 'cause someone labels you 'exempt' does not close the case.
There are standards having to do with autonomy, kind of work, etc. that also apply. Do your reading, check it out.
It always, of course, pays to have a good relationship with your boss.
(No, that does not mean "kissing up to him/her&quot
what kind of boss (manager/supervisor) do you have?

Jay
Jay Maechtlen

 

[TD2K]

I work for an engineering consultant firm and am considered overtime exempt in that I don't get paid time and a half for OT. However, I also get paid for the time I work, don't put in 40 hours a week, you don't get a full pay check. Any time in excess of 40 hours a week gets 'banked' and I'm able to take it out when I want (sick time, additional vacation time, etc). Bank enough time and the company has provisions for paying it out to you as a separate check.

All in all, for me it's a win win situation. I can keep some banked time for when things get slow and thereby keep my benefits in effect and I'm not working for free when I was with an operating company. On the other hand, I know some people working for operating companies with much better benefit plans than I have. It's a trade-off.

 

[etch]

Well it seems there is a few good suggestions. Currently at our workplace we have a crazy scheme of having to give the comany 9 hours free overtime in a week, before you qualify for any payment. After the 9 hours in a week, you then get paid less than your hourly rate for the honour to work for them.

Saturdays and sundays you dont get paid for unless you have accrued 9 hours and again if you have its at a lesser hourly rate.

Anyone want to swap jobs lol?

the companies defence is that we get the benifits of being staff, which is paid when off sick, but this is a double edge sword, as our performance bonus is related to absenteeism, and the first criteria in layoffs is attendance.

 

[JayMaechtlen]

"give the comany 9 hours free overtime in a week, before you qualify for any payment"

what country/state is this in?
is that legal?

I assume that you are looking, or that something else about the job is really good?

Jay
Jay Maechtlen

 

[etch]

JAY

The country is UK. Truthfully im not sure its legal. In addition the european directive have announced a maximum 48 hour working week. This mean the maximum hours you are allowed to work are 47. This sounds an truly humane gesture, but the kind soles in europe gave every employee the option to opt out the system, so no points for guessing that conditoins of employment are that you must opt out the maximum hours worked.

Unfortunately, i work in a country where my type of work is not highly regarded, being a metallurgist to trade. I find a train driver can earn nearly twice as much as myself, and its me who makes the thing he drives and drives on.


Yes i like my job, though not necessary the conditions, but they where good enough to give me a position.

One thing i have noticed is that anyone in this job or industry, when they leave to go into another field tend to do remarkably well in their new career, this is down to thier willingenss to work longer hours and ability to adabt to highly stressful environments, now wheres my prozac.

 

[swertel]

Yes, there are areas that it is legal. For example, we have a 5 hour "incidental overtime" for salaried execpt employees. After we put in 5 hour of OT, then we get paid our standard "hourly" rate.

The plus side. We also have Leave of Absence, which the non-salaried, non-exempt people don't get. Essentially, it is the paid time off that doesn't count against vacation or sick leave (which is not accumulated for exempt). Granted, there are limitations to this so people don't come in for 2 hours and take LOA for 6, 5 times a week.

Maybe, when I have more time, I'll tell you the war stories of my wife's old job.

 

[miner00]

Thanks for all of the input. Unfortunately, there is little that can be done until I am ready to move on to the next job. Overtime as such is not even a consideration, anywhere up the chain from me to the CEO. A fact of life.

Just for everyones information, I think that this is legal in most states in one way or another. I am pretty sure california is an exception. It is really up to the company how badly they want to keep employees whether or not you work these hours.

At any rate, it is nice to know that some people have similar problems and even nicer to know that some people don't have these problems at all. Hope for the future at least.

 

[JAE]

We had an incident a few years ago (in the US) where our firm was paying draftsman (CADD techs) hourly wages with time and a half for any overtime over 40 hours per week.

For Engineers in Training (EIT) they were paid an hourly wage (we called it a salary) and they got paid straight time for anything over 40 hours per week.

Engineers and corporate execs were paid salaries with no overtime. But this group had the opportunity to buy stock and receive distributions at the end of each year based on profits.

This went well for a while, but someone called the US dept. of labor and complained about the straight time for the EIT group. We were interviewed and had to change our policy. We ended up changing the EIT group to straight hourly wage plus time and a half for overtime. The engineers still get paid a salary with no overtime.

The strict definition of a salary is basically: "I do my job, no matter how much or little time it takes, and you pay me X".

I've almost always been on salary and usually don't fret the time off on a Friday for an appointment or such. Usually I'm over the 40 anyway.

Usually it comes down to your relationship with your company, their in-house policies, and the supply and demand for engineers......when engineers are plentiful, the companies can afford to work their tails off. When there are fewer engineers available, you tend to see companies treat their people with a little more respect. Since the 60's the trend has been toward fewer available engineers and you see companies being more flexible with their policies.

 

[electricpete]

I believe that in the example you provided in 2nd paragraph of your original post, most employers would allow you to take off early without any pay penalty, provided there was no pressing work to finish on Friday. That is certainly the case for my employer.

 

[dozer]

Jay Maechtlen made a very good point. Just cause someone slaps an "exempt" label on you doesn't necessarily make it so. Remember the FLSA is designed to protect workers not give employers a right to abuse certain segments of the labor force. My understanding of the thought behind an exempt class is that this group of people should be able to negotiate their own fair deals without the backing of the federal government. My personal opinion is that when we (engineers) work for "free" we're doing a disservice to the entire field.

 

[JamesBarlow]

I think I have you all beat.

All employees who work here get 4 weeks of vacation. Even new employees. But you guesed it, theres a catch. You have to be with the company for a year before you can take the vacation.

Now here is the real catch. The company shuts down for two weeks after Christmas and two weeks over the summer. So we get 4 weeks of vacation but they tell us when to take them.

What happens if you have been here for less than a year. You get four weeks vacation, with no pay. Talk about a kick in the stones. I take a job based on a yearly sallary, but find that I only get payed for 48 week, even though my weekly gross is based on my salary divided by 52 weeks.

Make waves, get layed off. Pretty simple.

I can't speak for all employers, but for me in particular, the folks in the front office look at the engineers as a commodity, like pork bellies. It's all about getting the most you can for the least investment. The company also had it's entire engineering department turn over in less than 6 months. Need I say more?

 

[etch]

sheesh James your job is a holiday compared to mine.


Holidays are as follows 4 weeks at managment discretion. Most people dont get them, and some have had to cancel holidays booked at last minute, or risk losing job.

Now i have gone into working week and our overtime scheme, where we have to work 9 hours before getting paid over time at a lesser rate than our hourly rate. for instance last week i worked 35 hours overtime(that 35 worked hours, not 35 hours made up of time and half and double time). This included working till midnight 3 nights running, including friday , in on saturday morning, in on saturday night and in on sunday night, all classed at normal rate. In addition i worked alone on three nigths, something that breaks the health and safety act.

Now for these 35 hours i worked, 9 is deducted under overtime scheme, so that 29, 29 x £10 is £290, of which i will lose 1/3 to tax so thats £190. So for bending over backwards in helping the company i get £5.40 an hour. If i was not staff i would have qualified for 55 hours overtime. at a far higher flat rate. in addition we have been asked to meet them half way and reduce this £10 an hour overtime flat rate to £5 an hour.

I agree with your last comment that engineers are seen as a usable commodity. Turnover here is very high, longest serving employee is 10 years or so.

I think ill write to DILBERT about this one.

I agree with James that if you make waves you find yourself out of a job.

ANyone beat this.

 

[MortenA]

etch

Sorry for saying the obvious - why do you do it then? (bending over i mean).

If engineers are really treated like this (and this is sub standrads to other profeesions) - why dont change profession?

I simply dont get it. If you send the signal: You can treat me any way you please and i will just grumble a little then i think you had it comming.

I understand that there can be certain circustanses (general job market etc.) that requires that a low profile but you must take the consequences i belive (and look elsewhere)

Best Regards

Morten

 

[etch]

MORTEN
You are probably oblivious to the current job situation in UK. My main trade is metallurgy, and in the uk where i work, there has been a systematic closure of all heavy industry and engineering over the last 10 years, i have worked for 12 years and in that time 6 companies i have worked for have closed.

All we seem to do now is open supermarkets and call centers.I have tried to change career, doing a Health and safety diploma, and even going so far as to stop working go back to univeristy to do Mechatronics, after mechatronics course ended i got a dream job with an electronic company, which was motorola, which subsequently shut. Moving abroad is not an option as i have other commitments, and besides that, the job or at least the career i have chosen is one i totally enjoy.

I would probably say that my history is not to disimilar to many other people workig in this industry in uk, most work long hours or long peroids of overtime. There are very little oppertunity for younger people today to obtain training in engineering and especially metallurgy.

 

[RDK]

Nobody can take advantage of you. Only you can let them take advantage of you.

If you are in a job market where the employers have all the power and can abuse the employees then you have two choices, take it or get out.

Its easier for me to say that because I have my own firm. My payment scheme is simple. I work I get paid. I no work I no get paid.

I just came off a job where I had negotiated a daily rate based on a nominal 7 ½ hours working every day. The minimum was about 10 and some were 14 plus hours. Seven days a week. Today is my first day off (and with no pay since early July). The work was also away from home. I was happy to do this. I knew that the days would be long and with no breaks going in. It’s a bit of a new area for me and my client was very supportive in helping me learn the ropes in this area, now I have a brand new and desirable area of expertise to add to my resume.

Did my client take advantage of me basing my daily rate on a shorter day than we knew going in or did I take advantage of him by getting new experience? Or was it a even deal? (I consider it even, I would probably go right back into it all over again as soon as I catch up on some sleep and reintroduce myself to my wife.)

If you don’t like your situation, considering everything, the experience you are getting, your other job prospects, the work environment, the other benefits and the salary etc, are you better off in your job or out of it. If you are better off in your job then accept the bad with the good. If you are better out of your job then quit.

Of course that’s just my opinion I could be wrong.
Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[etch]

My job is simple its not as good as other and not as bad as others. I consider myself fortunate to be in a job, and that although it has a downside, it still is in a field i consider intresting and challenging.

I have felt for many a year now , that your work life is work and your home life is for home. You work simply to earn money to allow you to enjoy your home, and do things you want. To quote someone more intelligent than me
" Remember, no rich man lay on their death bed and wished they spent more time in the office"

Yes, my work hours are long, and the job brings little satisfaction, but im better off than alot of people on minimal wage or not on a job.

My point was to others are, there is always somone worse off than you. If i had to do things again i would definately move to america, this seems to be a place where work life is more intresting and rewarding.

 

[DeltaCascade]

In Canada I worked with a consulting firm where the first 30 hours of overtime each 3-months was for free, the rest at straight time. They did manage to give small bonuses at year end. Pretty good company, though, in hindsight.

And, ... don't forget to vote at the next election!
How about a healthy economy where we can all contract as professional engineers. No "salary" ... billable hours, only, where chaos is cash ...
Keep on working...

 

[mlandm]

I am a salaried employee with a minimum work week of 45 hours. After that it's 1 1/4 my hourly rate. I can't take sick days without being scrutinized even though my boss takes off early all the time, or shows up late, or doesn't come in at all. Alot of other salaried employees I have talked to at other companies say that they have a 40 minimum week, and anything over 45 is 1 1/2 hourly rate, retroactive back to the original 40 hours. Management will do whatever they can to you to get as much work for as little pay or benefits as you will let them.