Export into China: GB-150 Code & ASME 5

[Ganfoss2]

Do someone can show me a good internet site where it is possibe to get a detailed and comprehensive CHECK LIST to be follwed during the DESIGN & CONSTRUCTION of a Pressure Vessel?

We get an order for a Pressure VEssel for China Market, but we do not know the GB-150 and we do not know if the simple use of ASME VIII1- or VII-2 is enough to get the approval from the China Authorities.

Exampe: if the requirements stated in the following Par. of ASME VIII-1 are accepted withount any problems or if there are other additional constraints to be followed:

Materials that can be used to Manufacture a Pressure
Vessel (Ex.: UCS-5 to UCS-12,UNF-5 to UNF-15 and
UHA-11 to UHA-13) + any constraints on teh Raw Material
Procurament.

UG-23 + UCS-23 + UNF-23 + UHA-23
(Which Allowable Stresses to use to Design a Vessel)

UW-11 to UW-20 + UCS-19 + UNF-19 + UHA-21
(Regarding the Joint Efficencies to be used in conjunction
with the Inspection Level Phylosophy [ Ex.: RT-1 to RT4 or
NO RX Check ]and which Weld Joint Details are allowed
or not allowed)

UG-16
(Minimum Thickness of Pressure Retaining Components)

UG-11 + UG-44 + UW-21 for Standard Flanges
(Use of the Standard Rating without performing
any other additional Code Calc.)

UG-84 + UCS-66/67/68 + UNF-56 + UHA51
(For Impact Tests Requirements)

UW-10 + UW-40 + UCS-56 + UNF-56 + UHA-32
(For PWHT Requirements)

UG-99 or UG-100
(Final Equipment Testing)

Any other ASME Par. tied to the FABRICATION and INSPECTION
activities to be performed on teh Vessel during the DESIGN
and MANUFACTURING.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[gr2vessels]

Ganfoss2,
Is the order you got written or verbal? It is a bad business practice to fabricate a pressure vessel for someone who is unable to specify the code you have to use. Don't try to guess your way out, Murphy says that you'll fail the whole project.
You must ask the Client for a clear specification of what you are expected to fabricate and supply. If your scope is to design to the Chinese code, buy the code and read it carefuly. The Chinese approval for imports is not your problem, is your Client's duty to obtain their legal approvals for the vessel, including the compliance with their code. Otherwise the Client should clearly specify what is he expecting you to provide.
I know, you are trying to give a cheap product to someone asking for the cheapest product, but in this business where safety is involved, if anything goes wrong, they will dig you up from your deepest hole to get you.
cheers,
gr2vessels

 

[Ganfoss2]

We are on finalization of the Purchase Order.

The problem is that our Client (Not Chinese) want the ASME Code but at the same time compliance with Chinese Regulamentation (The Client has no long time experience and has no a clear pictures of what he has to do an want we have to do).

We do not know GB-150 Code. We have take a look inside but ... finding the differences respect to the ASME Codes (even if it is similar) is a high time consuming activity!
Essentially the problem is an problem of interpretation of the GB-150 requirements? There is no INTERPRETATION VOLUME as that of the ASME CODE Collection where it is possible to take a look inside and to try to find a clarification on GB Requirement.

Discussing with other peoples, sometime seem that a design FULLY COMPLIANCE with ASME VIII-1 or VIII-2 is accepted "AS IT IS" without any changes or additional requirements coming out from the Chinese Authorities (CSEI/SELO).

Some times seem that there are additional constraints on Type of NDE and on their Extension (Ex: "No RX check" seem that is not acceptable for Chian Authorities even if allowed by ASME Code), sometime on the value of Allowable Stresses (Ex.. Safety Factor on Carbon Steel Material is 1.6 in lieu of 1.5 sated by ASME applied to Sy @ Design Temperature) and Joint Efficencies (if RT3 or RT4 Level, E are different from that of ASME).

Further more, it is not clear which are the LATEST ISSUES and any recent or superseeded AMENDMENTS.

The sumamry is: confusion + last sentence is at charge of CSEI/SELO at the end of the Project.

This is the reason why I'm looking for a GUIDE: to start inteh good way and to avoid discussion at the end of teh project.

 

[gr2vessels]

Sorry Ganfoss2, but I don't know well enough the Chinese code, to give you specific advice on the differences between ASME and the GB-150 codes.
I think however, that it will be very hard if possible at all to find someone in this forum, versatile in both Chinese and American code, more likely you'll find someone in China, expert in GB 150 and good enough in ASME code to explain you those differences.
I suggest to complete the design in accordance with ASME code, print out the calculations, then take the GB-150 and run the calculations again in "chinese", the differences will pop-up instantly. You should then be able to evaluate the differences and adjust the "ASME" design accordingly. As far as fabrication, NDE and inspection concerns, if you inspect in accordance with ASME code, I'm sure you will do more than the typical gate guard does in China.
cheers,
gr2vessels

 

[etsen]

Maybe you will have some ideas from the post titled 'Special Equipment Manufacturing Licence for China'
(

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=214570&page=1).

Design and fabrication of pressure vessel according to ASME construction code are accepted in China. And the manufacturer must also follow the regulations:
1.Supervision Administration Regulation for Manufacture
of Boiler and Pressure Vessel
2.Requirements for Boiler and Pressure Vessel Manufacture Licensing
3.Procedures for Manufacture licensing of Boiler and Pressure Vessel
4.Supervisory Inspection Rule for Safety Performance of Boiler and Pressure Vessel Products
5.Revised Regulation for Boiler and Pressure Vessel Manufacture Licensing
You can get them from the link '

http://www.cnisn.com.cn/IRC/EIRC/special1_1.html'.

Thank eeromatti for providing this link.

 

[Ganfoss2]

Many thanks to all.

I have found a lot of constraints regarding NDE Inspections during Manufacturing. Constraints on RX Check level, definition of the Allowable Stress and on Joint Efficencies.

The best way is to proceed is to directly submit the Proget directly to the China Authorities for any of their comments.

 

[cmsvessel]

Gan2foss,
For your questions, you have the follwoing options:

1. You get your company registered with China vessel regualtion authority. They will issue your company a cert of authorization. But this takes time and you must have somebody within your comapny who knows Chinese Code-GB150 and other related code;
2. It is possible that your Chinese customer can accept AMSE designed and fabricated vessel;
3. I have an engineering company in China, and if you want, I can have my people design your vessel in accordance with Chinese code; or
4. you can even contract us for these vessels which can be made per Chinese code.

I see no possibility that you can satisfy both ASME and GB-150.

 

[GenB]

It is best to contact your A.I. agency who can help you
get the certifications TUV and others inspect in China so they are best advisors.
if the customer wants just ASME, send them ASME cert vessels
be sure you get your money in advance so if the gov. gets them it is their problem.
Just as they ship all their stuff here w/o any certifications and the importer has to eat any problems.
I am quoting some vessels to china right now, any other than ASME is their problem.-
genb

 

[TomBarsh]

For what it's worth, a Google search turned up this comparison between ASME and GB 150 Code (Chinese Code):

"Comparison of GB and ASME Standards" presented by an ASME subgroup in Singapore

http://www.psig.sg/Seminar/Comparison_of_GB_&_ASME_Standards.pdf

It looks pretty informative.

 

[Ganfoss2]

Many thanks to all! Now the picture star to be clear.

We have shifted the problem of the DESIGN APPRAISAL to our Client. We are a Registered Manufacturer for the China Authorities so Ok with the export.

I have made the entire design calculations in full accordance with ASME. I was obliged to "optimize" reducing the thk of the main components as much as possible (P.Des very very close to MAWP) for ... "cost saving" otherwise ... no chance!

But now ... seem that I have to take in account the allowable stress modified by SELO/CSEI that are different from that stated inside ASME plus all the requirements stated inside the "Regulation for Boiler and Pressure Vessel Manufacture Licensing" Document + its successive revision (Constraints on: Equip. Design + Raw Material Certification + Equip. Construction Inspection).

I have to redo the Equipment Design another time (I hope for the last time!)

It seem so strange for me: I heard form other of my collegues working in other Companies that they have exported into CHINA in full accordance with ASME without any amendment to the Code.

 

[Ganfoss2]

Here there is an extraction from the GB Code. This also reflect the requirements stated inside "Regulation for Boiler and Pressure Vessel Manufacture Licensing" of SELO/CESI (if you do not know GB-150,the scripture stated inside the Document of SELO/CESI is ... acriptical!)

 

[cmsvessel]

"It seem so strange for me: I heard form other of my collegues working in other Companies that they have exported into CHINA in full accordance with ASME without any amendment to the Code. "

Not strange at all. I told you in my reply. It is possible for your China customer to accept ASME stamped vessel.

Now that you are exporting to China, why do not you out source the fabrication to China.

 

[Ganfoss2]

My company is planning to outsourcing in India (concrete scenario). The "China Option" is a ... "commercial experiment" (we arrived in that market later!)

My local market (in my country) do not offer too much opportunities (too many and to feew jobs): It is not more the "gold age" like 10 or 20 years ago (I was too young at that time!).

In any cases ... I prefer that everthing will be manufactured and designed in my country, otherwise ... It shall be difficult for me (and my collegues) to reach the age at which I can retire from work (I have to wait for at least other 20 year!) But ... the "commercial war" with our Worldwide Competitors (expecially that from the far east) is not so "easy to win"!

At the end shall be: "if you can't win against your enemy then maybe try making an alliance with him". That is your suggestion at the end.

Other solutions? Difficult to find! Invent something of "new" that nobody do not do? Now it is not so easy to make something of "new" expecially in the Steel Pressure Vessel Manufacturing "Systemm". Even new theard of "use new/innovative materials" ... it is a bet for the future that should be win by a FINAL USER before and by any Potential Engineering Companies later.

For "new" the problem is to have the "courage" to propose a new solution.

NOTE: Courage, also known as bravery, will and fortitude, is the ability to confront fear, pain, risk/danger, uncertainty, or intimidation. In the "Pressure Vessel Manufacturing Market" it is the OPPOSITE (from FINAL USERS & ENGINEERING COMPANIES).

But I'm shifting out of the main argument of this thread. Sorry.

Again, many thanks to alls for your replies.

 

[vida23]

Hi, Ganfoss2
That's a wanderful argument! I am a designer in MORIMATSU GROUP (CHINA). We often do the CASE USING BOTH ASME AND GB150-1998 for the clients all over the world.

http://www.morimatsu.com.cn

I think the main differences between ASME VIII-1 & GB150 are the following:
allowance stress(safy factor ASME is 3.5, GB is 3.0)
NDE(RT >=20% PER WELD LINE, IN ASME THAT'S SPOT RT, ONE SPOT shall be examined on each vessel for each 50ft.)
Joint Efficencies for some materials(FULL EXAMINATION) is not allways 1.0(for example,AL, CU, Ni, Ti, Zr)
thanks
vida