Extremely Low Engineering Fees 16

[tdevries37]

What is the average structural engineering fee out there? I am getting quite frustrated in quoting projects & getting beat out by firms that claim to draw the structural drawings and seal them for $50 to $100, for something like a 24 x 40 pole barn for example. That's it, $50 - $100 total.
How can legit firms compete against that? We are located in Michigan and there is no way we can complete a project for that fee.

Any feedback is appreciated. Thanks!

 

[JAE]

I feel your pain.

One thought: Don't do pole barns.

 

[MDE327]

Engineering and drafting on pole barns can be very simple if one has a good spreadsheet and drafting templates set up. I routinely did these at my old firm with about 15min of engineering and 30min of drafting.

That was for a very basic design of course. We did charge significantly more than $100 as well.

Mike Drinkwater, P.E.

http://www.mdrinkwaterengineering.com

 

[msquared48]

This firm has probably predesigned them for specific
region(s) and doing them enmass... cookbook style.

This does lead to lower fees and cornering the market, leading to higher fees for the clients, with time, as engineers, like us, are weeded out of that market.

As JAE suggests, find a different market.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[msquared48]

A further thought here...

For that other market, you could talk with a few local lawyers about serving them as a consultant for pole barn litigations, and there are a lot of them. Who knows, maybe you'll get payback here.

I've done a few and it is amazing the horsedodo you find.

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering
Motto: KISS
Motivation: Don't ask

 

[tdevries37]

I just used the pole barn as an example. This is happening on small commercial projects, too. I have heard that these firms are located mostly in India & China. I just think that if these projects continue to go oversees, engineering firms here will be forced out of business. I know someone who works for a stair manufacturer, he is afraid of losing his job because their drafting is all going to India.

 

[Ron]

tdevries37...if that is happening, then someone is "plan stamping". Find out who is sealing those designs and report him to the state board.

 

[321GO]

Just out of curiosity,
only an american company is allowed to stamp?



"If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack."
Winston Churchill

 

[hokie66]

321GO,
Assuming the OP is in America, engineering drawings for buildings can only be stamped by a Professional Engineer authorized to practice in the state where the project is located.

 

[321GO]

hokie66,

but a practicing engineer can sign outsourced drawings, can't he?



"If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack."
Winston Churchill

 

[frv]

321GO..

No. An engineer may only stamp work he or she did, or work done under his or her direct supervision.

 

[rbulsara]

Stamping without review is illegal, stamping after checking and reviewing is not.

What is the definition of direct supervision? Standing over one's shoulder? If one can review a drawing emailed from his staff designer on the floor below, why can't one emailed from China?

If an engineer in New York can "supervise" work of a staff engineer in San Francisco, why can't in Delhi or Shanghai?







Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[frv]

Definition from the Texas Engineering Practice Act:

"Direct supervision - The control over and detailed professional knowledge of the work prepared under the engineer's
supervision. The degree of control should be such that the engineer personally makes engineering decisions or personally reviews
and approves proposed decisions prior to their implementation. The engineer must have control over the decisions either through
physical presence or the use of communications devices."

I don't think this applies to an Engineering firm in China that submits complete drawings.

 

[rbulsara]

How many CEO, VPs and Principals of engineering firms in the USA who routinely stamp drawings, "personally" supervise work of their design engineers or make day to day design decisions?

There are many large A/E firms in the USA who has back offices overseas, even proudly advertised. Are they illegal?



Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[frv]

rbulsara..

I don't really know how other companies and industries operate. Structural firms tend to operate differently than other firms.. If you have an office in two cities and both offices are registered, you MUST have a PE in each office. Otherwise, you cannot advertise that office as offering engineering services.

I can only assert this for Texas with full certainty, although I suspect most other states have similar rules.

Again, exempt industries may be different, but the OP was talking about structural services.

In any case, I think it's a disservice to the profession for someone to be willing to stamp drawings produced in China for next to nothing and charge next to nothing.

 

[rbulsara]

There is also a difference in just CAD work done being overseas vs. design.

I fully understand the frustration with "outsourcing", but there is a difference between something being illegal and something we do not like.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[tdevries37]

frv - Thank you! The exact point I am trying to get at. I agree, I think it is a disgrace to the structural engineering industry that this is happening and the trend is growing. I am losing business left & right because of this. I don't understand how a firm can pay their insurance & licensing fees when they are charging $100 / building. I cannot.

 

[frv]

rbulsara..

In your penultimate post, you asked whether it was illegal to stamp the drawings, you didn't mention anything about CAD.

CAD outsourcing is actually quite common in certain industries. At my soon to be former company, this is standard practice. I didn't like it, but I can't do anything about it. Engineering, however, was done completely in our office. Checked by two engineers. AND when drawings came back, they were also checked by an engineer.

The drawings that were done in India were NOT required to be sealed. They were detailing tickets for individual pieces. The CD's were all designed and drawn in house.

 

[rbulsara]

Sure. Key is to adapt to the changing business environment. As for competing against cheap fees, what else is new? Best advise to combat that was given by JAE in the first response.

The situation being discussed here is not much different than acceptance of products designed and manufactured overseas, UL listed and sold in the USA.

Also it is naive to assume that all overseas engineers are not competent or all "local" ones do not make mistakes.

I know personally of one case, that shop drawings of a certain multinational company, improved remarkably after they shut down their local office in USA and outsourced overseas!

Also quality of some drafting done overseas is much better than I was able to get from in office CAD work of some of my past employers. This may not hold true in all cases.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[321GO]

tdevries37,

but why are they so cheap? Is it merely due to the outsourced CAD? (seems unlikely)




"If you have an important point to make, don't try to be subtle or clever. Use a pile driver. Hit the point once. Then come back and hit it again. Then hit it a third time - a tremendous whack."
Winston Churchill