F1 Engine Bearings

[Gottsy]

I know the subject of rolling element bearings for the use in the bottem ends of Automotive Engines has been discussed many a time, but I am curious as to what type of bearings are used for the rotating assemblies of F1 Engines? Surely Plain Bearings would not be used at such high RPM's.
Any information would be greatly appreciate.

 

[GregLocock]

They use plain bearings.

The difficulty of assembling a stiff crank from parts far exceeds the slight gain in efficiency from roller bearings.

Typical saving would be 90% of the friction in the hydrodynamic bearing. That sounds great doesn't it?

However the friction in an F1 engine is dominated by the valve gear and piston rings. So you are gilding the wrong lily.


Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[MaxRaceSoftware]

Greg Locock,

i used a few equations years ago from a few SAE Papers to calculate HP losses from bearing clearances and oil weights
and there were small HP differences than i thought

but years later, when trying Royal Purple # 9 Drag Racing oil..there were more HP gains than those equations calculated possible ?

Greg Locock..any ideas on why the larger HP gains ?

Larry Meaux (maxracesoftware@yahoo.com)
Meaux Racing Heads - MaxRace Software
ET_Analyst for DragRacers
Support Israel - Genesis 12:3

 

[schmidtj86]

The amount of oil wrapping around a crank has a huge effect on hp at high RPM (30+ hp). Adding a crank scraper will help, so will thinner oil - so I would guess that your experiment didn't take that into account.

 

[jgm]

The 2001 Asiatech F1 engine used a one piece crankshaft running in six caged roller bearings. The cages could be split for access.

 

[GregLocock]

Yes, that is used on some really big engines as well. So, how good was this Asiatech engine? Gilding the wrong lily.

Larry, I'm no tribologist, but the oil goes to a lot more places than just the mains, I'd guess any slight improvement in say piston ring friction or more likely skirt friction would dominate the effect in the mains themselves. But I am guessing.

Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[Tmoose]

I think the theoretical friction advantage is based on the attractive low-speed data that unfortunately overlooks the heating from lube churning.

Extra oil (beyond the truly TINY amount required, as provided in minimal, air oil or oil mist lubrication) in a high speed ball bearing can make a heap-o-heat. Then pretty quick you are forced to provide MUCH more oil, simply to cool things off.

 

[kiwinjuneer]

The are huge frictional losses are in the valve train. In fact flaying surfaces between the cam followers and cams lobes are subjected to such huge loads that both components must be made from very hard high alloy metal, even though this flies in the face of good engineering practice.

Certain synthetic lubricants and additives can achieve extremely high film strengths (>150,000 psi) and in pre-ECU vehicles, I have personally seen the idle speed increase by as much as 250 rpm without touching the idle adjustment.

At higher rpm, shear plays a big part too and synthetics again, tend to be better in this regard.

Noone in F1 is ever going to run API SJ 20W-50 in their $50K engine but if they did, it would not surprise me if they lost 100 hp.

Don't take this post as a plug for synthetic lubricants generally. I can tell you from testing a lot of them, that many are quite ordinary at fulfilling their primary function, that of keeping pieces of metal apart...

 

[Metalguy]

Kiwinjuneer,

You should call up the guys at Isky cams, etc. Seems they used a 5 HP electric motor to spin their SBC test cams. Only thing missing was the CC pressure on the valve heads.

 

[evelrod]

Metalguy, the only test I saw at Isky back in the late 60's used a small engine (5hp?) that spun the camshaft so the valve action could be strobbed. However only ONE cylinder had valves/springs etc.---my famous memory but, that's what I remember.

Kiwinjuneer, just out of curiosity, where can I get a couple of those $50,000 F-1 engines?

Rod

 

[Metalguy]

Rod,
I never saw the setup, but IIRC it was described in an Isky cam-war ad against roller something (lifters, rockers, bearings,?). Wonder if anyone here knows any old Isky employees? Hmmm, I'll bet B. Crower knows all about it.

 

[kiwinjuneer]

I failed to clarify that I was talking about el cheapo production engines when commenting on valve train losses. Racing engines typically have roller followers which reduce losses while I understand some even use 1/4 speed cams.

A $50K F-1 engine? I guess I'm way,way too cheap. Looking on the web suggests that they are $1M a piece: ouch! In Indy apparently you can get the car thrown in for that amount...

 

[evelrod]

Metalguy---As far as I know (it has been at least 22 years since I did business there), Ron Isky still runs the place. Perhaps a phone call could get an answer.

Kiwinjuneer---I was watching a Speed Channel show a while back about the developement of one of Ferrari's F-1 engines. The total bill for ONE engine was the equivilent of $10M, U.S.!!! I guess $1M would be considered "bargain basement" for the Ferrari folk? I have never been a very good spectator at races, I would rather race my vintage mini (I would surely love to be able to compete in the Kiwi series one day) than get all googly over a parade of $100M cars. It is interesting to note the technological advances, however.

Rod