Fair Compensation for SE? 16

[STrctPono]

Hi all,

I've been getting a lot of push-back from my wife at home concerning my job's work culture and her desire to move States. I am pushing hard not to move. I wanted to provide some information and get some feedback from you folks because I am completely unfamiliar with how my job's compensation stacks up to other jobs around the country. Am I spoiled? If I leave my State will I end up working for the DOT somewhere else?

My only Engineering job that I have ever had is my current one and I started it right out of Graduate School (Masters) 7 years ago.

I am a licensed Structural Engineer working for a small (12 Engineers 3 Drafters) private consulting engineering firm that gets the majority of its contracts through the State DOT (either directly or indirectly). We do all sorts of design related to transportation infrastructure but bridge design is our bread and butter.

The State I work in has a technically inept DOT that does hardly any of its own design work and relies on private consultants to provide most of those services.

The job has exposed me to many different projects (many exciting and high exposure). All very challenging.

The summary of my 2019 work year and compensation is as follows:

-Worked a total of 818 Overtime Hours
-Gross Pay = $176,171.00 (This includes straight OT pay, Company Truck, Contribution to Whole Life Insurance policy, and End of Year Bonus)
EDIT -Additional $14,094.00 contributed to Profit Sharing Retirement Savings Account (Not reflected on my W-2 which is why I didn't include it above).
-In addition my company pays 100% of all health insurance premiums (I have a family plan)
-15 days of PTO
-Company pays for any and all engineering books, reference materials, or continuing education I want
-Approx. 1 Engineering related golf tournament each year
-Trip to World of Concrete or International Bridge Conference (or equivalent) every other year
-Attendance to SEA banquet which usually includes 2 night hotel stay every other year

I don't have to do any of my own drafting. I spend 70% of my time doing design work and 30% of my time doing Finite Element Analysis work and/or Bridge Load Ratings. I never work with Architects. If our contract is not directly with the DOT then either the Civil Engineer or the Contractor (Design-Build) is our client.

Benefits:
-I like the work that I do.
-Good pay
-Good benefits
-Get paid for overtime (straight hourly pay)
-Get a pay raise every year
-Flexibility with my daily schedule (I can take a few hours off here and there to go to my kids school performance, or take care of a family matter, or even bring in a sick child to work with me if needed)
-Challenging and exciting work projects
-Not expected by my boss to bring in jobs for the company at this point in my career
-Live in paradise. Great place to raise kids.
-20 minute commute time

Downfalls:
-Work a lot of overtime. Office has a "work first" culture. I personally witnessed my coworker's marriage and family life deteriorate over the past few years due to his workaholic lifestyle.
-My boss is king and pretty much has final say on all matters
-Boss has an expectation of perfection, hates excuses, and has a tendency to yell and belittle people (however the last part has gotten a lot better in the past 3 or so years)
-Very steep learning curve. Especially related to FEA, no one in the office helps with analysis and you pretty much have to teach yourself everything.
-Taking vacation days is frowned upon but is allowed. I'm probably one of the few people in the office that utilizes all the days each year.
-High cost of living (consistently ranked in top 3 cities in the country). Expensive place to raise kids.
-Due to the high work load and my poor time management, I regularly pull all-nighters trying to get projects out by the deadline.

I was hoping to get some of your guys' work experiences and what you are compensated and how you like your job. Feel free to share. Thanks.

Thanks!

 

[phamENG]

At first glance I'd say yes, you are spoiled.

Overtime is a pretty rare thing for engineers - the firm where I interned did a straight time OT for engineers, but everywhere I've been since and everywhere any of my friends have gone has been salary - work 38 hours or work 83 hours, pay is flat.

Gross pay looks really generous, but you are in HI...not sure how cost of living stacks up to where I am. As a PE working in buildings in VA with your experience, you'd be looking at $75-$85k. But then, $350k will buy you a 3 bedroom, 2 bath house in a decent-to-nice neighborhood if you're willing to drive a little bit to get to work. Groceries for a family of 4 eating great food and a fridge stocked with beer, and full wine rack and liquor cabinet is doable at about $150/week (my wife collects coupons).

I've never heard of anyone getting 100% health insurance. My last firm's insurance broker would always tell us that our employer was spoiling us at about 80% - no other clients paid more than about 65%.

Your downfalls sound pretty universal (apart from the high cost of living), though the "work first" culture is starting to shift.

Perhaps we can trade places - my wife loves Hawaii...

 

[KootK]

My general impression is that you've got it pretty good. It's not perfect buy you'd struggle to do much better and you could a LOT worse. I'd trade places.

 

[TheDW]

I'm a year younger than you, making slightly more than half of what you do doing buildings (mostly residential, some smaller commercial). I'm in the Charleston, SC, area and after a quick google it looks like we are about 30th in the nation in CoL.

Based on compensation from companies I've worked for in the past and chatting with friends in the industry, I feel more than fairly compensated here. I'm in a small office and the office is empty at 430 every day. I haven't worked any overtime in the past year (knock on wood...). We are pretty much constantly frantically busy like most companies nowadays, but our culture is that when its quitting time, its pencils down and go home to your family.

 

[canwesteng]

Your compensation rocks. Plus you get to live in Hawaii? Have you seen about getting a work laptop and working from home for some of that overtime, and maybe paying someone to chores like lawnmowing or whatever so you get more family time?

 

[JLNJ]

A couple of thoughts from a mid-sized mid-west engineering firm engineer:

It's hard to put a dollar figure on the cost of your boss being a jerk (or the value of NOT being a jerk). I have worked for a string of not-jerks. Knock on wood.
Nobody lies on their death bed thanking God for the work-first culture which wrecked their health.
I have not been to Hawaii. Not yet anyway.
Averaging 60 hours a week to work for someone else seems like too much to me. Even if it's at time-and-a-half.
I am grateful for my 6 weeks of PTO and know I am lucky to have it.

 

[BridgeSmith]

I work for a DOT doing similar work to what you describe (except we do very little FEA). By my calculations, I make about 60% of what you do hourly, but I only get overtime sporadically (maybe 100 hours a year on average). However, according to this cost of living calculator, I only need half as much to live on here (assuming we've guessed correctly that you're in Honolulu). So, comparing based on 40 hour weeks, it's fairly even, but without the overtime, you'd be taking a big financial hit. My guess is you'll find that's probably the case with most places that you'd compare.

The weather's obviously not as nice, but the best skiing in the US is close by. Hurricane season, minus the rain, is pretty much year-round (e.g. it's windy here most of the time). For me this is home, but it might be too much of an adjustment for your kids, especially if they're over the age of 8 or so. Somewhere in the South, along the Gulf Coast, maybe, wouldn't be as much of a shock. Most areas of Texas have a low cost of living.

Rod Smith, P.E., The artist formerly known as HotRod10

 

[r13]

I estimate your hourly rate is around $55, very generously compensated for your experience and position (if not in management), I can understand it makes you very difficult to be compensated similarly somewhere else. But looks like your problem is very simple - wife and family, or money and work satisfactory.

 

[DaveAtkins]

You had me hooked until I read the following:

-Work a lot of overtime. Office has a "work first" culture. I personally witnessed my coworker's marriage and family life deteriorate over the past few years due to his workaholic lifestyle.
-Boss has an expectation of perfection, hates excuses, and has a tendency to yell and belittle people (however the last part has gotten a lot better in the past 3 or so years)
-Taking vacation days is frowned upon but is allowed. I'm probably one of the few people in the office that utilizes all the days each year.

No amount of money or job satisfaction can compensate for time which should have been spent with your wife and children.

There is absolutely no excuse for a supervisor belittling his employees in a professional work setting.

DaveAtkins

 

[r13]

Also, well compensated does not automatically equate to living well. My experience might not applicable to you, but for your judgement.

I was interviewed by a company located in the US Virgin Island, all travel costs including food and hotel were covered, so I'd no clue how much each costed. But before leaving the island, the owner gave me a $100 bill and said "buy yourself a lunch at airport, a burger here costs $50, drink and fries are not included". To my later knowledge, there are only 3 types of people live there, government workers, super riches, and commercial service personnel like us (very few), who are likely young, unmarried professionals. The benefits were great, including paid travels to home, and compensation for time during office evacuation for hurricanes. I rejected the offer, as I was married with teenager daughter in school. But, until today, I still feel sorry for myself to missed the chances to design those fancy homes on an isolate island.

 

[MrHershey]

Having lived and worked in Hawaii in your field (except buildings, not bridges), you are paid fantastically for only seven years' experience. Now whether it's worth a jerk boss and 50+ hour weeks I can't answer. Everyone's different. I've known people who have worked 60 hour weeks for decades, and I've known people who tapped out at 42.

One thing about the hours that mainlanders might not understand is it's extremely difficult to find qualified people in Hawaii. There's an extremely limited supply of good people already there (university isn't that strong) and because of cost of living and isolation it's really hard to convince people to go out there. So when things get busy, you can't just staff up. There's no one to hire, so the existing staff just has to work more hours. Hopefully they get compensated handsomely for it, fortunately it appears that you are. There's also generally no cost of living adjustment for Hawaii, which makes your pay even more impressive.

If you were to move I would bet you take a significant hit in compensation. Bridge work does seem to be paying better than building work right now, but I'd still guess you're in low six figures at best if you were to move to my current area (Chicago), for instance. And if you want to keep that 20 minute commute (likely to downtown here) your cost of living probably isn't going to be that much lower than Hawaii. Chicago area is cheaper by quite a bit, Chicago within twenty minutes of downtown is not.

 

[WARose]

Even considering OT.....your hourly rate is fantastic for someone with just 7 years experience. I know guys with 30+ years experience who don't make that. Of course, I am comparing that to salaries in South Carolina (where the cost of living is much cheaper).

In any case, you mentioned family life deteriorating......you also mentioned a lot of all-nighters. You've got to decide if what this is putting you through is worth it. No one here can answer that for you. The question becomes: how big of a strain on your family is this? And will things stay together if this continues? Again: only you know that one.

[red]EDIT:[/red] I'll add on a anecdote. My dad made about 200-350k per year (and we are talking 20-30 years ago). It meant a good lifestyle for his family and him retiring (relatively) early. On the other hand, it also meant him coming home at 9pm every weekday and strains in the family. Their marriage is still going strong after 50+ years (and he has a good relationships with us [his sons]).....but the road has been rocky on the way. In any case, I say all this because it illustrates that no situation is perfect and everyone has to find that balance in their lives.

 

[JoshPlumSE]

Compensation seems fair to me for a high cost of living state.... If you're working all that overtime, then you deserve the extra pay. Now, a lot of companies will not pay overtime. So, you'd have a decrease in total compensation. However, you wouldn't be expected to average 15+ overtime hours per week. And, you'd be able to spend a lot more time with your wife and family. Are you able to put significant money away (in savings, for retirement, for kids college).

Now, one of the important points (to me) is that you genuinely like your work. I honestly think a lot of people put too much focus on salary and not enough on how much they enjoy their careers. Therefore, I definitely understand why you'd want to stay. However, it doesn't hurt to look at what types of jobs are available in the locations where your wife might wish to move.

If this were occurring with me and my wife, I would hear her out. I would let her know that while I don't WANT to move, I'm not going to completely slam the door on her desire to relocate. Let her do some research into cost of living differences, relative price of houses, quality of education. Once that's done and she's narrowed down her search a little, then take a look at the job prospects in the area. If the work looks interesting to you, then maybe take a vacation there and go on some interviews.

 

[KootK]

Somewhat similar to Josh's comment, I find that:

1) My family likes me more when I'm working long hours but in a great mood when I am home because I love how I'm spending my days.

2) My family like me less when I'm home a lot but a sourpuss because I don't feel as though I'm working towards something worthwhile in my career.

The best situation would be for me to be able to put work down entirely when I'm with my family regardless of how satisfied I am with my work situation. Unfortunately, I'm a couple of decades in to this now and still haven't mastered that consistently.

We've been mostly focused on salary but, in my opinion, the actual makeup of your work sounds pretty great too. I would struggle like mad if I made the move, took a large salary cut, and also liked my job 30% less. Unfortunately, in your situation, I'd consider this scenario to be a real possibility.

 

[STrctPono]

I really appreciate all the responses so far! I have read all of your posts and value your input. Please keep it coming.

It's understood that finding the proper work/life balance is only something I can do and I am well aware that this is something that I strive for all the time. I just wanted to point out that my personal family life is not deteriorating, however, I watched a fellow coworkers relationship with his wife and children crumble. My wife desperately wants to move to be closer to her family (Mom). This is not a sentiment that I share.

Based on all your input, it does seem to be a consensus that in terms of monetary compensation I would be hard pressed to find an equivalent paying job elsewhere (even taking into consideration cost of living).

I should clarify that although my boss is prone to yelling and belittling, I am not the focus of that attention anymore and I seem to have been immune to it for the past 4 years or so. With that being said, We all walk on egg shells around him and make it a point not to disappoint him. As much as I don't like it, I honestly can see why he is that way. He started this company from the ground up, pulls in large contracts, honors nearly impossible deadlines, is a rather brilliant designer, and takes care of his employees. I can only imagine the amount of stress that he is under in life. He really expects that you get it done, you do it correctly, and you don't make excuses.

Occasionally this equates to me working 80 hour weeks, consuming adderall like candy, and pulling multiple back to back all-nighters working for days at a time. It's this aspect of my job that my wife hates! And honestly from an outside perspective I can understand why it appears ludicrous. But then when the perfect storm subsidies I get a reprieve and all is well again. To me it's one of the downfalls of having a project-based work schedule as opposed to say..... a clinician who can put their day behind them when they leave the office. As Engineers working on Construction projects, our days, weeks, months, sometimes even years run into each other.

At this point, my questions would be:

1. For those who have not offered this information, do the rest of you average 56 hour work weeks? Is this pretty standard?(Regardless of OT pay)
2. Can any of you provide any insight on your experiences with bridge design in your State, as either a private consultant or working for the DOT? I really only have the experience from my isolated world.

 

[STrctPono]

There's also generally no cost of living adjustment for Hawaii, which makes your pay even more impressive.

Very true! At least for Engineers. I appreciate your insight! Why did you move?

 

[STrctPono]

Have you seen about getting a work laptop and working from home for some of that overtime, and maybe paying someone to chores like lawnmowing or whatever so you get more family time?

I have a very interesting work culture. Several of the Senior Level Engineers can barely even figure out how to print their own emails, yet the same day we're coming up with a scheme to externally post tension an existing concrete bridge with carbon fiber strands. Very innovative but technologically cautious. I would love to be able to do this and I think it could work but my boss would never go for it.

 

[rb1957]

this "expects that you get it done, you do it correctly, and you don't make excuses" seems to be a very generous description of this "prone to yelling and belittling" behaviour.
This "takes care of his employees" sounds odd alongside "prone to yelling and belittling".

the latter sounds like a bully, who needs to be confronted; the former sounds very reasonable. I guess the unreasonable aspect is the time scale. I guess he is getting a premium for meeting "nearly impossible deadlines". I guess if you say "I'm not willing to work "multiple back to back all-nighters"" then he'll say "get a new job". I suspect he's somewhat dubious of your commitment (if you take all you due vacation time off), though probably happy with your work.

How frequent is "occasionally" … 1/month, 1/quarter ? If you can live with these then it's a good deal. If you can't, then don't.

another day in paradise, or is paradise one day closer ?

 

[WARose]

1. For those who have not offered this information, do the rest of you average 56 hour work weeks? Is this pretty standard?(Regardless of OT pay)

When I worked for the big EPC outfits.....50 hrs wasn't unusual. But 56 sounds a little high.

 

[phamENG]

I never had it quite as bad as you're describing, but my wife had similar feelings about my schedule and the associated stress - that's one of the reasons I left the design firm where I was working for a less demanding schedule elsewhere. Where I was working, minimum billable hours were expected to be 45, and I've found this to be fairly typical in talking to others in the area. My firm didn't enforce this too harshly unless projects were falling behind, but keeping it usually meant at least 50 hours in the office each week (depending on how accurately you measured hours as billable). Busy weeks would be well over 60.

Your boss sounds like the typical entrepreneurial work-a-holic type. The founder of my old firm was a lot like that before he retired, though I don't think I would say he yelled or belittled anyone (at least not that I saw). But he did do the 80 hour weeks designing, reviewing, administering, marketing, schmoozing, etc. That's probably a bit more prevalent at small firms still run by the original founders. There's often an emotional connection there that drives them to protect their "baby" from slackers and no good employees trying to take advantage of their life's hard work (not agreeing, just trying to represent their point of view for argument's sake). If you go to a larger firm or even a smaller one that is a generation or two past the founder, this attitude is usually reduced.