False References... 4

[keano]

Recently the company I work for has had to let go an employee taken on only six months ago due to their lack of cooperation and non team spirt participation.

On reviewing their C.V. details and references our H.R reported that the previous company had given this employee a glowing reference, all the things he was not to us.

My question is, Why those this happen? Do companies give references to troublesome just to get rid of them so that they can avoid possible lawsuits when they try to sack them.

Has your company ever done or even considered such action?

 

[IRstuff]

That's probably more common than anyone is willing to admit. We've had a similar situation, where a VERY senior engineer was given glowing references and it turned out that she was MUCH less than capable. Still, it took over 10 yrs to oust her, since she know how to game the system by crying sexual discrimination.


One thing to bear in mind is that some glowing references are written to be double entendres, so that someone reading in an upbeat vein will perceive it to be good, while someone with a carker outlook will see the negative connotations. In fact, there was a book written on how to do that about 20 yrs ago.

TTFN

 

[ajack1]

In the UK it is illegal to give a bad reference, so the very worst is I can confirm that A worked for the company between X and Y. This does not prevent the giving of false glowing references to “help” someone leave, but I have never heard of it happening.

One thing when starting a new job that always worries me is how will I fit in? However good (or bad) anyone is they always work better in a certain style, some prefer a more informal set up others prefer a more regimented style and every now and then two personalities clash for no seemingly good reason. This is never good when one of them is your superior.

Perhaps the last employer did genuinely see this guy as a good worker, maybe one company expects you to work all weekend at very short notice and the other doesn’t, so one company sees the guy as disruptive and uncooperative where the other didn’t.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Ron]

In general, most companies in the US do not give references anymore. They will usually give dates of employment, salary ranges (not actual salaries), and job category, but not performance or personal info. To do so increases the company's liability.

 

[HgTX]

There was a case last year of a nurse who was killing patients. He had been under suspicion, but never enough to involve the police, at previous hospitals. But none of this was ever conveyed from one employer to the next. There was rather little debate later over whether the previous employeers should have had a moral obligation to pass on their suspicions rather than follow the letter of the law and comfirm employement.

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[mshimko]

Often candidates don't want us to contact their current employer (I comply with their wishes, BTW).

But even if the candidates says it's OK, I take recommendations from current employers with a BIG grain of salt.
- will they tell me the person is great because they want to get rid of him?
- will they say he's not that great because they don't want to lose him?

Either way, I can see motives for not being totally forthright. Plus, most people tend, by nature, to say only good things about people. Heck, I had a discussion with an attorney years ago who said giving an employee an "average" on an evaluation was insulting. When I contored that his real performance was lower, she wanted to know what I felt about his past 30 years of gov't service, or about his military service, or.....even though he was being evaluated for the past 12 months only!

 

[HVAC68]

Does anybody hire a person based on only a reference from a previous employer ?

What's the interview for then ? Why are his/her technical or other competencies checked in an interview if a mere reference from a previous employer is enough ?

The reference can probably be used to ensure that the candidate is not a cheat/thief or he has not done any unlawful/unethical activities.

HVAC68

 

[IRstuff]

Because, sometimes it's hard to get that information during interviews, particularly for senior level personnel. With senior people, it's generally considered somewhat insulting to ask them to solve a technical problem during an interview. The CV usually lists patents, publications, etc. that hypothetically reveal the degree of competency.

Unfortunately, the downside is that you get some of the knuckleheads making it through the wicket.

TTFN

 

[jsummerfield]

If I provide references, you can bet that the are people with whom I previously discussed as being a potential reference. It is likely reciprical.

I agree with the other post that the HR group does not want you to contact the previous employer. However, this is where professional societies can be good. When you go to the meeting and casually inquire a friend and fellow manager about someone over coctails you may find the real deal. This sort of networking would be unlikely to find its way onto any HR forms.

John

 

[IRstuff]

The problem, of course, is that there are often some pretty smooth self-promoters. I remember once, running into an ex-employee of a previous company at a new job. He didn't know me, and started to rattle on about how he fixed a bunch of problems on a project at his old company. Strange, since I actually was working on that project and never ran into him while doing so.

TTFN

 

[buzzp]

The companies in the US are only started to give titles and dates of employment due to lawsuits. Some of these suits are even justified in my opinion. The ball rolls both ways.

 

[svanels]

Is it illegal to give bad references?

We once had a young engineer maybe not that bad technically, but a real disaster socially (arrogant). His contract was going to be renewed, he knew it and was prospecting other firms.
He asked his manager if he could reference (boss) his name.
Manager told him yes, but don't expect nominations for person of the year. Bottom line you can tell that you worked under supervision of the well known mister XYZ, but don't let HR-freaks call for details.

The engineer tried a former company were Mr XYZ worked about 20 years and they did not take him.
He tried to sue Mr. XYZ (no luck).

If the HR department is in control of who gets in, you will receive "sh.."
Points to look at:
Is it a job-hopper? (be aware)
Long working history ,and can not describe what he/she has done, aside receiving a paycheck? (be aware)
Sequence of education, working history, are there unexplained missing gaps? (be double aware)


Maybe the guy falsificated certificates, letters etc, I have seen this before. I also have received letters that I could obtain a PhD in whatever area based on my life experience.

 

[Slugger926]

If a company gives a bad refference, then the employee can sue that company. If the company gives an employee a good referrence, then that company can be sued by the new company if the employee becomes a flop. That is why companies in the US only state that an employee has worked there before with no details.

On the otherhand, friends at the old company can give the employee personal but not proffesional refferences.

 

[buzzp]

It is illegal if its false (its called slander or libel - cant recall - written and ones verbal). False can be proven by reviewing performance appraisals and personnel files.
I went through this a while back (burned a good bridge by telling them what I thought of the company president (engineering manager) through their written exit interview process). He got mad and slammed me for a reference a few months later. I hired a third party to perform a reference check. Low and behold the president of the company was bashing me bad (even though job reviews etc were excellent and even had a promotion to manager in this time). I called them and gave them a good scare with my report from the third party. I believe they learned their lesson (no I decided not to sue even though it was a pretty clear case - lawyers words). I also learned not to burn bridges and if you are going too, get a written letter of reference first to avoid the headache. Even if your not, I still get one because you never know what is being said. At least the written reference is proof of your performance when you left the job.

 

[svanels]

In this case I mentioned there was no written reference of performance, the prospective company just told the guy politely "We are sorry but we don't want you" He was the perfect candidate (in his eyes) thus assumed that his former manager had something to do with it.

HR also came up with the idea of exit interviews, I find it a waste of time. In my opinion, if in a place the people turnover, absenteism is high, it doesn't take a genius to discover that something is wrong. They receive job reviews and appraisals from everyone in the company.

With senior people, it's generally considered somewhat insulting to ask them to solve a technical problem during an interview

That is B.S.
Most likely he will be interviewed also by his future (bosses), who will sit with the headache, if the boss is afraid to ask, he gets what he deserves.
We are talking about new employees, not about someone who is already there and glued on his chair.

 

[techmaximus]

As luck would have it, this thread is the subject of a story on page 1 of the Living section of the left-wing rag known as The Atlanta Journal-Constitution (05-01-05). Hendrick (the reporter) writes that Mike Aamodt, a Radford University industrial psychologist, did a study and found that recommendation letters often send unintended signals and provide either too much or not enough information. Aamodt says that, “employers have an ethical obligation to be honest. Some employers violate this ethical expectation by providing positive or neutral references on bad employees to get rid of them.” Aamoldt says even have an industry specific phrase to describe this supposed un-ethical activity: “passing the trash.”

I don’t know if I agree with the contention that giving a “neutral reference” on a bad employee is some kind of violation of an ethical compact amongst employers. Lots of folks fit well and work well in some places and not in others. A change in employer may be all that is needed to turn a so-called bad employee around; it’s called LEADERSHIP.


Techmaximus

 

[buzzp]

I gave you a star techmaximus.
"Aamodt" sounds like a corporate lawyer. The corporate world has a long way to go before they can talk about ethics again.

 

[jcfoley]

I have just recently changed jobs. It seemed very strange to me when my new employer made no effort to check my references. I found out why about 2 months after starting this new job. If you give a professional reference for anyone, you are subject to immediate dismissal.

What is our world coming to? This sort of mirrors some of the comments in another thread about our "Blame Culture" (ref. thread731-122159.) Ethics will not allow me to tell you anything other than how I feel. I guess that I am very old fashioned.

[ul]
[li]I tell the truth.[/li]
[li]I open doors for women.[/li]
[li]I say yes sir and no sir.[/li]
[li]I say yes ma’am and no ma’am[/li]
[li]I accept the results of my mistakes[/li]
[/ul]

As far as I am concerned, these types of ideals are being lost. The reference problem is just a symptom of a very sick culture. I am beginning to think that I belong in a museum.

Chris

 

[HgTX]

Subject to dismissal?? Do they say why?

Hg

Eng-Tips guidelines: faq731-376

 

[ScottyUK]

jcfoley,

Dismissed? On what grounds? It is hard for a Brit to see any legitimate reason why, although I guess it could be written into contract by some devious HR type - ok, so that could be any of them - with a hidden agenda. Outside of that it is hard to see any grounds for dismissal.

If you need an English offshoot for your museum, I guess I'll be a good exhibit. I'm old fashioned too, but I look on it as something to be proud of. My father and grandfather were old fashioned, and I admire them both enormously.



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