Faster better cheaper..... Lithium ion batteries. 1

[rmw]

I think that my earlier comment had to do with sustained running. The operative word(s) in that piece were "short bursts". Funny that she set the underwater speed record while being towed with no screw even installed.

I would note that every battery car I have ever been in can accelerate much faster than when gasoline driven, but they can't produce that kind of power for long.

Speaking of Rickover, I am glad that the service allows a few quirky guys like him to survive.

rmw

 

[IRstuff]

That's just a combination of the energy density difference and the difference between a PM motor and an IC engine. An IC engine could presumably be built that would have gobs of torque at low rpm/speed, but it would probably gulp gas like crazy.

Nonetheless, the generators required for the quick charging would likely be 10 to 100 times the size of the normal generators, which aren't exactly dinky to start with. This also means that the engines would need to be upped by a factor of 10-ish. That's a lot of SWaP to give up for those batteries.

TTFN

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[cranky108]

So if you up the size of the engines, won't that affect the balance between the forward and back ends of the boat?

Makes me wonder if anyone has looked into fuel cells, and just get rid of the engines.

 

[waross]

I think that heavy haul trucking will be an easier market target to hit.
Paccar is already into hybrids.

http://www.paccar.com/environmental/hybridprogram.asp

As a topic for discussion, I wonder about the feasibility of a boxcar full of batteries to help freight trains through the mountain passes.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[MikeHalloran]

One boxcar ain't gonna do it.

The PACCAR program provides power when the engine would otherwise be idling; orders of magnitude less than required to push a loaded train.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[IRstuff]

Again, it's still energy density. Diesel has about 6 times the volumetric energy density compared to the Lithium batteries used in the Tesla.

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[moltenmetal]

I think some of you are missing the point here: a battery which can be charged in 20 seconds can also be charged in 1 minute or 5 minutes. What these guys have done is to remove a key rate-limiting step in the recharging process (ion transport), which is HUGE for so many battery-powered devices!

Most importantly, at first blush, this would appear to be a solution for electric vehicle recharging.

The issue of heat management during the fast recharge is not trivial and would be a serious consideration. None of these electrochemical processes are 100% efficient, and the heat liberated has to go somewhere. Just like mass transport (moving ions around in this case), heat transport takes time.

Assuming the heat management issue can be dealt with (huge assumption), providing the peak current to recharge a vehicle at a vehicle charging station in a short period of time (minutes rather than hours) is a trivial problem. This would not be something you'd have at home, any more than most of us have a big fuel tank at home to refuel our existing cars. And it would make the difference between a vehicle being stranded for hours versus being able to refuel rather like a conventional gasoline or diesel vehicle- albeit more frequently. There's a huge value proposition in it.

A truly fast charge would render electric vehicles that were previously limited to being run-abouts for commuting or shopping, into a fuller replacement for existing liquid fueled vehicles. They could become distance vehicles over time, once the volumes of vehicles on the road made the infrastructure investment worth the market's while to install. Granted, most people don't drive further than 50 miles per day, but the inability to drive more than 100 miles without an 8 hr recharge, makes the electric vehicle impractical for most people as anything except perhaps a 2nd vehicle. The option of dragging around an IC engine all the time for those comparatively rare occasions where extra range is necessary (i.e. the Chevy Volt) is not all that appealing either.

 

[jmw]

It presumably can also be discharged as rapidly which may also deliver some advantages.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[IRstuff]

I don't think anyone is missing the point. The Tesla battery is 56 kWh capacity. Even at 5 minutes of charging, the charger would need to supply 672 kW of continuous charging. If these cars were actually more plentiful, a charging station would need to be dumping megawatts, and require infrastructure that doesn't exist now.

TTFN

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[moltenmetal]

The existing gasoline refining and distribution infrastructure didn't exist in the days of horses and buggies either. It was built slowly to satisfy a demand.

Assuming the heat management in the battery itself can be worked out (a huge assumption), building some stations which can do ~3 MW (5-6 cars-worth assuming they all need full "tanks") of recharging at a time, wouldn't be a huge technical problem. A smart grid could make these stations wait a bit longer (15 minutes instead of 5) to moderate demand during peak periods- but nobody would wait around for 2-4 hours for a recharge unless it was at work etc.

Smart charging stations might add an energy storage system such as a high speed flywheel etc. to make use of off-peak electricity- or maybe just a much larger bank of the same batteries. Even with the losses inherent in storage, the resulting energy source-to-wheels efficiency would be pretty good- though questionable if the ultimate source is still fossil-derived. If shale gas is the ultimate source, LNG makes far more sense as a fuel.

Most people would still recharge at home, overnight, using off-peak electricity, simply because this would be (much) cheaper than using a charging station- but these stations would render longer trips feasible. It's huge for the overall acceptance of the electric vehicle as a replacement for a fossil-fueled one.

All of this is well within the realm of existing technology- no new inventions necessary. All it takes is the money to fund it. And that will only come from one place: the price of liquid fuels. Until there's a price on carbon emissions to the atmosphere which shows up in the price of fuels, this is all academic.

 

[waross]

If a charge will take 15 minutes have a coffee and a do-nut while waiting.
So- will Dunkin Donuts be putting in charging stations or will the charging stations be lining up for DD franchises (Timmy's in Canada).

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[IRstuff]

15 minute charges would quintuple the number of required stations or "pumps" The line at Costco is already typically too long, while a refueling cycle that is less than 3 minutes. My local Costco can refuel 20 cars at the same time, so even with 1/3 the load, 20*224kW = 4.48 MW. That's a gigantic investment in infrastructure.

TTFN

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[bacon4life]

The Canadian Navy uses just Victoria Class diesel-electric subs.

 

[moltenmetal]

IRStuff: true enough, but only if you think people will try to charge their cars only at remote stations, the way you're forced to do with gasoline cars. They won't- the only time they'll use the remote stations is when they're on long trips. For the 90+% of trips that take the vehicle less than 100 miles per day, they'll charge at home overnight on off-peak power. Station charging will come at a serious premium.

Yes, this means less nighttime cooling for grid components and will make off-peak look more like on-peak, but this will not happen in a couple of years.

People needing true long-haul range (i.e. in remote locations) will still need liquid fueled vehicles, unless or until someone makes a quantum leap in battery technology.

 

[cranky108]

I know a number of people who drive about 130 miles a day to work and back. So remote charging isen't so easy to wash away.

I guess they could charge while at work, but how much would you have to put in the combined parking and charging meter. Will they be charged by the charge, or kWh?

Sometimes it is winter here, so what would the range be if you run the heater? Or AC in the summer? Won't wet roads affect the range?

 

[jmw]

Easy change battery packs?
You buy the car then go buy a fully charged battery pack. You pay a deposit on the battery pack equivalent to its cost but every time you run low you simply swop it out. The power provider maintain the batteries and replaces them as necessary.

This is exactly how you buy bottled gas and this could be a good business model.
So all you need is that the service station has lots of ready charged batteries and they simply put the returned battery on charge, run quality checks etc.
Over time, of course, your refund value on the battery depreciates.
This is a no lose for the supplier because who is going to claim their refund?

Of course, the batteries are a hefty item and may need to be modular and car design may need to allow for ease of unplugging an replacing batteries. But if these batteries are seriously lighter, this could be a way forward.
This is also a good way to avoid some of the infrastructure costs.
The G-Wiz, for example, requires a 3 phase supply for charging.
Most users could possibly get by with a trickle charge to get enough charge to get to the service station. I'd like to know how the new battery might influence charger specifications.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cranky108]

If you can just swap out the batteries, then you don't need faster charging batteries. Just more of them.

However, as you touched on, the weight, and size are problems. Haveing at least two car manufactures use the same type of battery size would be difficult, let alone six or more.
The weight of several hundred pounds, to several thousand pounds is difficult. You would need a fork lift at each filling station, as well as how many bolts to loosen and tighten.
Dosen't sound like a quick change option.

And currently the production of lithium is very limited, which is a problem.

 

[IRstuff]

The Tesla has 990 lbs of battery.

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[jmw]

990lbs is a lot of dead weight to cart around.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[cranky108]

If you charge the batteries, then they won't be dead weight would they.

Compressed air still sounds better and quicker to recharge.