Feeling Incompetent as a Young Engineer 10

[Yook]

I received a BS/MS in MSE from a well respected university and have been working in an entry level engineer position for about a year now. My group works to maintain a large variety of small and large machine elements and vehicles and consists of 15 or so mechanical engineers. As the first and only materials engineer in the group, my bosses do not have much of an idea what tasks to put me on. I have tried to find avenues to help the team and am on the path towards becoming a "jack of all trades" sort of materials engineer where I focus mostly on failure analysis of metallic components, heat treating, tribology and wear, materials selection, etc. I hope to learn enough about these topics to where I can solve common problems without having spent too much time delving deep into complete understanding of the intricacies of these fields. I have a few ASM handbooks and have access to textbooks on most topics I would need to know. I have recently felt quite incompetent in my work and wanted your advice on how best to succeed or become more knowledgeable in such a role as mine.

Someone will come to me with a practical question such as: "How can I heat treat this 4140 rod to achieve better wear properties" or "Can you estimate the cycles to failure/loading spectrum of this part which failed in fatigue?" I can hardly ever answer these questions off the top of my head and will whip open a textbook or ASM handbook only to feel overwhelmed with choices to make and not enough information to steer my decisions. Oftentimes I find information in textbooks which directly conflict with each other, and the internet is often very little help because it is so vast and hard to cipher through without some knowledge about what approaches will work. This forum seems full of very experienced engineers and I hoped to gain some insight to your path towards competence in this field.

After that rambling introduction, my questions for you are:

1. What references have you found the most practical in helping to aid mechanical engineers in solving general machine design, failure analysis, materials selection, etc. problems? My goal is to become a jack of all trades materials engineer with an emphasis on practicality and maintenance.

2. Without direct mentorship, how are you able to approach complex problems with which you have no experience and make a decision? I oftentimes become stuck in analysis paralysis because I feel that I am overlooking something or that my approach towards a problem is too arbitrary.

I understand this is a pretty open ended topic. I hope to start a conversation and am open to any advice on ways to grow as an engineer. It feels as though I completely forgot all of the information I learned in my college courses and I am now floundering in professional life. I am really trying to pull myself up by my boot straps but sometimes wonder if I need a mentor.

 

[oldestguy]

Join an engineering group in your area. It may have a lot of engineers in other fields, but most engineering groups such as American Society of Civil Engineers (my field) have hundreds of publications. I'd bet the ME's have much the same. However, in the membership there likely are older engineers of your field that can help with your question. The Professional Engineer society in your state also can be an assist. You usually can join even if you're not a PE yet.

 

[epoisses_]

Any fool can ask more questions than any wise man can answer.
Being an engineer does not mean being able to answer any question off the top of your head. Engineering study does not mean learning lots of things by heart. It means learning a way of thinking.

Yes you don't know all that much, fresh out of university and after only 1 year of working and everything takes a lot of time. Noone knows "much" as a young engineer, it's not that YOU are incompetent. Your definition of "much" is probably ambitious - and it should be. As an engineer, you learn on the job. After 20 years of working I use maybe 1% of what I learnt during my studies. 1% or call any number, I have no clue really. It's so far away.

By all means use the other 14 engineers in your team to solve these issues. You know, being a materials engineer or mechanical or petroleum does not mean all that much. The guy in the office next to you may be lacking specific materials knowledge (but you too have to look things up ) but he may be able to help with his engineering way of analyzing things.

That plus what oldestguy wrote plus this forum.

PS in answer to your questions:
1 - I can't help you there really
2 - team work team work team work. If you work on machines and vehicles, use the vendors to help you as much as possible. They are usually eager to.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

Everyone starts out realizing that they don't know anything and then at some point unexpectedly people start coming to them assuming they know a lot even though they are just a half step ahead of everyone else.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Richard Feynman has a great story in one of his books (I believe it was "Surely You're Joking, Mr. Feynman!" about his days running the chemistry department of a plastics coating company. Once you've read that story, HamburgerHelper's comments take on a whole new light.

Unfortunately, I cannot find an online excerpt from the book that does the story justice, and any online accounts I've found so far basically give the punch line without the story leading up to it (which is very important for the moral of the story).

BTW, I have made my career about being that "jack of all trades", so keep at it... being the go-to guy can be very stressful, but it is also extremely rewarding.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Terratek]

Pretty much all engineers are not able to answer even the seemingly simplest questions upon graduation. So, you are in good company there. It is my opinion that having good mentor-ship early in one's career is paramount to becoming a successful engineer. I'd consider looking for a job where you will have a mentor. There is no substitute for experience - and learning from a mentor's experience expedites the process exponentially. I'm sure you'll survive either way, but I like to work smarter and not harder.

 

[CWB1]

I suspect you're going to reach an impasse very soon where you will need to either crosstrain to take on a ME's role or go elsewhere to become a proficient MSE. Quite realistically college teaches maybe 10-30% of what you need to know to be successful in engineering, the rest is learned through experience and mentorship by experienced engineers. Part of the problem with gaining the first is that many times you cannot escape the need for the second, you can read theory for months and often never learn key details and standard practices.

Understanding you mentioned this being a maintenance role, being the MSE in a group of MEs I would caution you to always keep in mind internal vs external process and the limits of your role in each. I've known many design engineers to unknowingly increase cost by over-constraining prints dictating external process rather than simply identifying design features. In your example above unless you are doing the heat treating internally nobody should care about the process only the final material characteristics.

As for references, I keep Machinery's Handbook on my desk for most design concerns and have a few odd college texts stashed nearby for odd occasions. Relevant to a MSE I have the volume of ASME's Metals Handbook on casting and forging and both Lincoln Welding/Blodgett's Design of Weldments and the Handbook of Arc Welding as I do a ton of complex weldment, casting, and forging design.

 

[HamburgerHelper]

McGyver,

I think you are referencing page 30 of this. Feyman was heading up the R&D of a company that was plating plastics and was ahead of his peers with all the different types of plastics he could plate. He just came across different methods using trial and error. Occasionally, screwing things up badly. The only help he had was a bottle washer. He bumped into a competitor ,who didn't know who he was, who thought the company must have had a full blown chemistry lab with 25 chemist to do all that they did. Feynman then introduced himself and told him what his "lab" consisted of.

http://www.earth.northwestern.edu/~...Feynman-Surely_Youre_Joking_Mr_Feynman_v5.pdf

Feynman almost got me into physics. He probably had peers that were on the same level as him technically, though not many but his ability to explain a phenomena with enthusiasm to layperson really set him apart. He always had a spark about him. Neil Degrasse has that same quality in my opinion.

 

[Yook]

I really appreciate all of the responses everyone. OldestGuy I will definitely look to join a professional society. I had attended some ASM meetings but they were 90%+ academic members and I was not getting much practical use out of attending.

Yes you don't know all that much, fresh out of university and after only 1 year of working and everything takes a lot of time. Noone knows "much" as a young engineer, it's not that YOU are incompetent. Your definition of "much" is probably ambitious - and it should be. As an engineer, you learn on the job. After 20 years of working I use maybe 1% of what I learnt during my studies. 1% or call any number, I have no clue really. It's so far away.

I agree that it is a good thing to realize that I have much to learn and not to worry extensively about it. My question back to you would be, how exactly do you "learn on the job". Did you go to your boss or an experienced engineer and simply ask them where to start? Did you start googling terms? Did you find an online course? Did you buy the highest rated textbook in the field and read it cover to cover? Did you try something different and look at how it changed the situation? In my degree my coursework was very heavily theory based, so now that I am facing more tangible problems I am finding it tough to find useful information to lead my decision making.

I do believe I have heard of Feynman's work before. Sometimes I wonder if I am not really supposed to be an engineer after all(at least a materials one) when I hear about people like him who are so driven by curiosity. Right now my goal is just to feel competent/valued in some aspect of my work because it seems like my career is rather stagnant at the moment and I'm learning so slowly.

Pretty much all engineers are not able to answer even the seemingly simplest questions upon graduation. So, you are in good company there. It is my opinion that having good mentor-ship early in one's career is paramount to becoming a successful engineer. I'd consider looking for a job where you will have a mentor. There is no substitute for experience - and learning from a mentor's experience expedites the process exponentially. I'm sure you'll survive either way, but I like to work smarter and not harder.

I suspect you're going to reach an impasse very soon where you will need to either crosstrain to take on a ME's role or go elsewhere to become a proficient MSE. Quite realistically college teaches maybe 10-30% of what you need to know to be successful in engineering, the rest is learned through experience and mentorship by experienced engineers. Part of the problem with gaining the first is that many times you cannot escape the need for the second, you can read theory for months and often never learn key details and standard practices.

I think you've both hit my situation on the head in that I can read all the theory I want, but without an environment where I can try things, fail, and build practical knowledge(I do not have the opportunity to validate many of my solutions or get feedback on failure analysis reports), I won't really be developing an engineering toolkit with which to approach similar problems. I had asked for a mentor so I could work my way into an ME role but was denied. I have a feeling you're right that without a mentor or a better environment, I really won't be engineering with precision and confidence anytime soon. It's just frustrating to admit that when it seems like I should be able to somehow power through this and learn the topics I need to in order to succeed.

 

[epoisses_]

"My question back to you would be, how exactly do you "learn on the job"?"

You know this may sound silly but what I did most of all was make mistakes !!
Apart from that I was privileged to be in a very big company with many helpful experts in the corridor and on the other end of the phone line.

 

[rotw]

1. What references have you found the most practical in helping to aid mechanical engineers in solving general machine design, failure analysis, materials selection, etc. problems? My goal is to become a jack of all trades materials engineer with an emphasis on practicality and maintenance.

I suggest efforts are invested in searching for references. By this I mean look in your archive system for an order or a project which has been done close to your assigned problem. It does not have to be an exact carbon copy, but something in the ball park. Take it from there. Make sure you have all the access to the database systems of your company. Occasionally if the administrator is surprised that you are asking for an access to a documentation system that nobody consult anymore, then you are probably on the right track.

There is a big amount of information in drawings for example. General arrangements give you pretty good impression how thing would look like (dimensions, weight, etc.), view packing list ; some arrangement drawings also have material listed, certain P&ID´s are accompanied with design flow, pressure, temperature etc. This is all very valuable.

2. Without direct mentorship, how are you able to approach complex problems with which you have no experience and make a decision? I oftentimes become stuck in analysis paralysis because I feel that I am overlooking something or that my approach towards a problem is too arbitrary

I heard someone said, if you cannot find the solution yourself in less than 20 minutes, ask for help...
Good heuristic.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

HH,

That's the story! I didn't search for text of the book itself as I figured the story by itself would have been published. Glad you found the book in PDF form... it's a great read.



Yook, the story has a pretty good moral. Feynman learned on the job, as he went, and was only just ahead of the curve... but to the outside observer, eventually he was "king" of the process.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Murec]

I've been an engineer for over 30 years and in my specific field (chemical plant maintenance) for over 20.
I am still "incompetent" and a "jack of all trades". All I learned in university is to read the books. For everything else I ask around, not just other engineers but also tradespeople and operators and I trust my gut feeling. The people in the field can give you great mentoring if you can gain their trust.

 

[aap2]

I understand this is a pretty open ended topic. I hope to start a conversation and am open to any advice on ways to grow as an engineer. It feels as though I completely forgot all of the information I learned in my college courses and I am now floundering in professional life. I am really trying to pull myself up by my boot straps but sometimes wonder if I need a mentor.

A doctor once stated that they need to have "walking knowledge." You're an engineer not a doctor.

Were you not given the formulas for your tests in college?

I wouldn't sweat these feelings that you have. You'll come to find that you know more than you think you do.

 

[weldstan]

I would suggest that you have ASM Handbooks Vol 1, 2, 5, 6, 9 & 11 in your Library. Find some other books that deal with the products that your company produces. Also seek advice on what has worked and what has not from the mechanical engineers. And do ask questions of and share war stories with fellow MSEs & Metallurgical Engineers in Societies that you will be joining.

 

[Comcokid]

The fact that you know the questions are beyond your ability to answer is evidence that you will make a good engineer. Many people are incompetent and clueless, and don't realize it. These people will follow the Peter principle and eventually drift into non-engineering positions like mid-level management.

Even after 40 years as an engineer, I still at times find my knowledge lacking to perform a task. Sales will suddenly decide they need a different kind of widget that the company has not made before. But my skills as an engineer allow me to quickly define what is unknown and to solve the problems involved in creating and testing the new product.

 

[aap2]

1. What references have you found the most practical in helping to aid mechanical engineers in solving general machine design, failure analysis, materials selection, etc. problems? My goal is to become a jack of all trades materials engineer with an emphasis on practicality and maintenance.

I have the FE Supplied Reference Handbook. It helps me stay fresh on some topics.

 

[Yook]

Thanks much for the responses. I've actually been having a better time at work even in the last week or so with your advice.

I have been hesitant to blame my situation as the cause of what feels like career/learning stagnation thus far. While I'm sure there's always more I could be doing to get ahead in work, I think this might be a case where I don't have much opportunity to succeed.

Anyone have any advice for how to tell when an engineering group is not a good place for a beginning engineer? A couple examples of things I've encountered in a year:
[ul]
[li]I do not receive meaningful feedback(usually just a "good job"), have not been placed on any tasks which have any importance to the group/company/anyone, have not been assigned a mentor, etc. despite several requests being made specifically about these things.
[/li][li]After learning for 4 months about a topic in order to solve a set of problems, I was taken off of the projects and told that I was only to provide a mode of failure(which nobody ever listens to) for the items but was not supposed to actually fix them. The projects have stayed unfinished for 8 months now.[/li]
[/ul]

Is there something I'm missing here where I can actually prosper in a group that seems like it doesn't need me or care about training new employees?

 

[CWB1]

JMO but I would approach your direct supervisor with a couple ideas for training opportunities on skills/tasks common to other engineers in your company, then see what ideas they have. Most companies and supervisors IME arent interested in opportunities specifically for one person, so I wouldnt expect much MSE-relevant. OTOH if you're interested in solid modeling, simulation, or other skills common to the MEs then I wouldn't see a supervisor being too averse to crosstraining and would expect them to have formal training easily available.

Opinions here vary, but many of the best engineers practice outside their degree. I've personally helped train several "others" including non-engineers varying from CS to physics in ME roles. If a niche interests you then by all means, learn it well and dont let anyone give you crap about your degree limiting your ability.

 

[HCBFlash]

You, my friend, have simply shifted gears. I completely believe the first sentence of your OP to be accurate. I'm saying, it takes a bit longer to get into your comfort range when you've shifted from 3rd to overdrive,,, or whichever.

It also sounds like you find yourself in an environment where you don't know your reasonable limits, management above you doesn't know your reasonable limits, and the group of other engineers you work with simply haven't been in this exact situation before. I'd also say with some confidence, that if your position there is precarious, it's not due to your own work or abilities. Believe it or not.

You've tapped into a very valuable and sound source of expertise and wisdom here on your thread. The replies here come from folks that some miles on them, and I haven't spotted a single response that I see as unsound! Let me too encourage you to go to some professional society meetings or the like, and "work the crowd" a bit. I'd also recommend working with a supplier to get to know their materials or other engineering people, and (in addition to getting to know them a bit) see what society groups in your area they may be active with, or have their esteem. Build your network.

.

(Me,,,wrong? ...aw, just fine-tuning my sarcasm!)