Fees 10

[kmead]

I would like to know if there's a rule of thumb on what the structural engineering fee is in relation to the square footage of the building. I know that it varies with a lot of factors such as complexity of the job and the scope of services, but I am just looking for a starting point to help me set a reasonable fee. Thanks in advance.

 

[JAE]

Structural fees are usually 17% to 21% of the total design fee, which ranges between 4% and 8% of the total construction costs for new construction.

 

[haynewp]

I like to think of the number of drawings it will take to get it done, but that's not always reliable. All structural engineers need to be raising fees immediately!

 

[Lutfi]

JAE,

Where did you get your figures? They are very close to what I am used to. But I doe not have solid reference such as ASCE or NSPE publications.


Regards,
Lutfi

 

[kmead]

JAE,
Would you ask the Architect for the construction cost or would you have to take a stab at estimating it yourself?

 

[rgerk]

I typically see around $0.36 to $0.45 per sq ft. But I try to factor in complexity and time also. It's a good starting point. Don't be afraid to ask the architect for the construction cost. They should be very willing to give you the number.

We see about 10% of the design fee in my area. Although, I am trying to increase fees as I can. I think it is way to low for the amount of liability structural engineers are exposed too.

Another factor to think about is the client you are working for. Do they change the structure throughout the design phase. If they do, charge them more, because you will be designing and redesigning constantly.

Hope this helps.

 

[kmead]

Thank you all for the great responses, they are extremely helpful.

 

[JAE]

Lutfi - these are just approximate figures I've seen over the years - and also read about in some publications. A firm named Zweig-White provides a lot of this sort of info in their publications and services.

kmead - In many cases the contracts I've seen have been actually written to set the fee at a percent of the actual bid construction fee. While designing, the construction cost is estimated to serve for on-going payments each month until the true final figure comes in. I once worked on an office building where our fee was set at 3.25% of the structural portion of the project. This meant that we had to get a copy of the contractor's cost breakdowns and figure out what parts were "structural". This got to be a little contentious as we haggled over things like masonry (how much structural goes into CMU design vs. architectural)...so this form isn't very good.

Means Cost Estimating guide lists structural fees at 1% to 2.5% of the total construction cost of the building (I think it excludes the site work but not sure). One old-time structural engineer I once knew who had his own practice would always charge 0.75% of the total construction cost.

 

[kmead]

JAE
Thanks for the valuable information. I think .75% of the total construction cost seems very reasonable and in line with what I've heard from people so far.
Thanks again.

 

[haynewp]

I "like" to see around $3000/drawing. Normally it is lower, as much as half. But like rgerk said the client(if architect) can kill you with meetings and changes (which we often don't charge for to make sure we don't get anybody irritated). If structural engineers would collectively start raising fees we could completely change our profession.

 

[Redfish205]

That is the key. We collectively have a responsiblity to make sure our profession changes. We have no less responsiblilty than doctors and we must charge based on that responsibility. Everyday I deal with those "bottom feeders" that quote unreasonable fees that I cannot compete with. I raise the red flag on these folks every chance I get. The medical profession does not have to contend with this for some reason.

 

[jike]

We develop our fees in 3 different ways:

1) % of total construction cost (based upon previous history). I agree with JAE that 3/4 is a good starting place for new steel framed commercial buildings.

2) $ per sheet times no. of sheets (based upon estimated scope).


3) Hours for various talks times hourly charge out rates

We then examine all 3 numbers and try to resolve any differences.

 

[AggieYank]

A good quote I heard about low fees:

"You pay peanuts, you get a monkey."

 

[ArneG]

From my experience fees vary based on project type. I typically calculate it two ways and then average them.

I do it first by how many full size 24x36 sheets assuming it takes 35 hours per sheet to complete.

Then I compare that number to a percentage of the total construction cost, usually:

5/8% for a big straight forward warehouse
3/4% for a straight forward apartment condominium
1% for straight forward school
1% for a straight forward addition to existing
1 1/4% for a straight forward church

If the project (or client) is complicated then I up it by a "trouble factor". This ranges from 1.00 to 1.50 based on project/client complexity.

I have heard lawyers mention that based on our risks we as structural engineers don't have nearly enough compensation.

I have also heard of us compared to medical doctors before. However, doctors are paid by insurance companies, and we know where that is going.

I always figured we were paid what we are paid because we are a good representation of a capitalist market. (equal product, numerous providers)

I also agree that we all raise our fees based on what the lowest priced man raises his fee to.

I don't think any of us makes what we should, but hey - that's true capitalism for you.

 

[samdamon]

Aoother proverb I've heard with regard to fees is:

"The work can be done fast, or right, or cheap. But you can only get two out of the three. Pick."

 

[xxpegasus11]

Quite interesting to read through the indications of fees charged - presumably most refer to peoples experience in the US market. Although I expect quite similar, anyone have any indications of fees in the UK market?

 

[UcfSE]

Do you ever add in an amount to cover shop drawing review, letters to be written, meeting time and so on? Those can take up quite a few hours of an engineer's time.

When you work hourly, what kind of rates do you charge?

 

[archeng59]

1) $0.75 to $1 per sq. ft of building footprint depending on the overall size, number of floors, construction materials;
2) estimate construction cost per sq ft (typically $100/sq ft for most commercial projects, $125/sq ft for health care, $85/sq ft for classrooms, $200/sq ft for fine arts centers); 10% to 15% of const. cost for structural; 4% to 6% of structural costs for fee; I will use a preliminary cost estimate if one is provided;
3) 1.25 multiplier for design build or project involving a construction manager;
4) fees include meetings during design effort, construction admin effort (site visits and shop drawing review);
5) I don't base fee on number of sheets, although architects known for intricate designs that require alot of detailing on my part will be charged a higher fee than normal.

 

[civilperson]

Hourly rates: Principals 150, Employees 2.6x wages

 

[jen4950]

We strive for a 3.0 multiplier minimum, and get a great deal of repeat business.

Not sure how familiar you are with the multiplier- but take your cost of production, multiply it by the multiplier and that's the fee. The key is knowing how much it costs to produce a job before you start it. The important aspect here is specifically outline what is included in your sevices in the proposal, and what is NOT included- and STICK TO IT!

Additional services for any item that isn't included in the proposal should be sought after from the client.

If your contractor ends up being incompetent, a very detailed proposal can keep you from getting hosed- for instance if you specifically say you will do 3 site visits during the construction phase of the project, and the owner/contractor insists on more, and you end up going out there 18 times- that's add-services.

Always remember you are not running a charity- you are running a business.