Finding the Right Client

[bigmig]

I live in an area that has several markets. The markets exist because of geographic diffences. The 'mountain people' with very
stringent building departments (engineering stamp required for literally everything) and the valley people, with little to no
building department requirements. Mountain people are characterized by $$, lots of regulations, and red tape and very little
questions asked. Valley people are characterized by "why do I need a g-d engineer", screw authority, and "I moved here to
get away from red tape". The building environment in the valley, is well, hostile to engineering input. And you can tell. There is less money
the houses are poorly built, not designed and the house fixers and insurance companies have a life worth of work.

There are also more people in the valley. Competition amoung builders is fierce. Low bids win jobs, period.

I work with the mountain people and live and have my office in the valley. Occasionally I get a call from a new valley client.
The jobs seems promising. Work is close to home. I am trying to politely and honestly tell the valley person calling me that I do not want to get involved if
they cannot accept engineering design that doesn't align with "this is how my grandpa, and dad did it and we have never seen a problem yet".

I clamber through strange conversations, am met with blank stares, and feel like I am obviously not communicating my intentions....
I want to be a good fit, and I don't want to find that out that I'm not, 3/4 of the way into the job at which point I get fired, not paid and swear
I will never do valley work again.

What is a professional way to say this? I meet on site; interview them, see the job....checking all the angles. I am just not sure how to extract the "I hate
doing things differently than I have been doing them" from the valley contractors.

 

[KootK]

I would show prospective valley clients some of the eye catching details that you expect to use on their projects and gauge their reaction to that. Ditto for any procedural things that you'll be asking for that might raise hackles. Basically "This is the kind of work that I am committed to doing. Are you on board with doing these things with me?".

You're in luck that, this week, I've already solidified my position as one of this forum's least ethical engineers. So I'm going to lean into that and give you what I consider to be much better advice.

For a brief time, I was mentored by one of the best SE business developers in the game. One of the most useful things that he told me was that it is possible to make a healthy profit in any segment of the market, geographical or building type. The key, he told me, was to scale the product to match what the client is willing to pay for.

Yeah, I know, that sound horrible. Nonetheless, I believe it to be true. So, were I in your shoes, I would seriously consider whether you might be able to bend a bit in terms of the rigor of your designs such that you are able to successfully deliver a lower quality product in the valley.

I myself do a bit of high end residential in both California and Alberta. Those could not be different products, truly. The fees and the designs are wildly different. Does it bother me that, given the Cosmological Principle, I apply Newtonian physics differently in different places? Yeah, it does. I can, however, turn a healthy profit doing valley work and do it a bit more rigorously than my valley competitors.

I ask myself, am I or anyone else better of if I leave the valley work to my valley competitors who will do it less rigorously than I would? I think not. Yes, this is a rationalization partly born of my need to preserve my own ego.

 

[Eng16080]

If Group A generally understands the value of having an engineer involved, and Group B does not, I think I'd focus my efforts on working for Group A. If you trust your observations about Group B, then I would simply refuse to take such a job from Group B. Simply say that you're not taking any new work, or if you can't mange that, determine an appropriate fee considering that you may well have a client who has zero respect for what you do. If Group B has been known to not pay for work done, require up-front payment. I don't know, I think you're making this harder than it needs to be.

I'm sure, as KootK points out, there's some way to convince a Group B person of your value as an engineer. Maybe this is a meaningful pursuit. I'm not sure. It seems a little bit like having a significant other that's a total disaster and making it your goal to "fix them."

If you had to "fix them," I would at least approach it by trying to make it clear up front what your engineered design would entail and how and why that may be different from what they expect and how their grandpa did it. For example, how in following building codes, we're required to design for loads and conditions that are unlikely to ever occur, etc.

 

[LittleInch]

If there are " little to no building department requirements" in the Valley, what exactly then is your scope / request for work?

Why are they actually asking you for something that isn't required?

Or is what is required the real basic minimal design sketch that they will ignore anyway and build what they always have?

So maybe the first question to Mr Valley person is "What do you want me to do and what output do you want?
If they want a full design with stamped drawings and calculations, then up front state what you think the cost is likely to be in a range and if they faint or go very quiet, then give them a coffee and then say goodbye? If required then explain that a stamped drawing incurs potential liability to you, which you need to insure and pay for, plus time to do the work / do the drawings. Also explain that meeting current building codes / standards results in designs which can seem OTT or excessive compared to the way it was done before, but that's how it is. You cannot cut corners without invalidating your licence.

 

[XR250]

I feel like all my designs are "Valley" regardless of the client

 

[bigmig]

If there are " little to no building department requirements" in the Valley, what exactly then is your scope / request for work?

Why are they actually asking you for something that isn't required?

Or is what is required the real basic minimal design sketch that they will ignore anyway and build what they always have?

So maybe the first question to Mr Valley person is "What do you want me to do and what output do you want?
If they want a full design with stamped drawings and calculations, then up front state what you think the cost is likely to be in a range and if they faint or go very quiet, then give them a coffee and then say goodbye? If required then explain that a stamped drawing incurs potential liability to you, which you need to insure and pay for, plus time to do the work / do the drawings. Also explain that meeting current building codes / standards results in designs which can seem OTT or excessive compared to the way it was done before, but that's how it is. You cannot cut corners without invalidating your licence.

They want to win the job (by being the lowest bid) and get through the building department with as little contact with an inspector as possible. They also want to "use my own experience" to build, and then see what you will do after they do that. "What, you're gonna make me take it all down?" That is an extreme case, but regardless, is the worst case scenario.

 

[Eng16080]

So, basically they "just need a stamp" for as little money as possible. Those are the absolute worst projects and worst clients IMO.

 

[Sparweb]

Early in my career I was taught by my employer to recognize "those clients who will be better served by our competition".

There was more than one time when a potential client came to our office, presented their project plan, and he said "this isn't the kind of work we do. Here's a number you should call." The first time he did this, I was amazed, but I was also naive and probably duped by the ambition of the proposed project. Instead he saw too much risk and not enough money in their hands to pay for it.

 

[LittleInch]

Ah, so you're bidding to builders to do the work, not the end clients??

You weren't explicit and I thought you were talking about dealing direct with the "valley people".

Then it is make it very explicit what you will do and what you won't or exclude everything else, get paid up front or always in positive and keep to your principles.