Fire Protection for Outdoor Process Tower 1

[khagberg]

I'll start off by stating I am a Chem E, not a Fire Protection Guy, so be gentle =) We are in the process of due diligence on designing a fire protection system for our process tower at the facility I work in. The tower is 5 levels and each level is grating with various pieces of equipment in it. The process uses solvents which go no higher than the second level of the tower. What NFPA code do I use to govern the protection and water flows that I need. I've been looking through NFPA 36, 30, 13, and 15. If someone could point me in the right direction that would be great. We've gone to so called "expert" and paid $$$ for a report that seems as if it were pencil whipped. Not saying all are like that but that was just my experience in this case.

Thanks

 

[cdafd]

What did the expert suggest

 

[LCREP]

"We've gone to so called "expert" and paid $$$ for a report that seems as if it were pencil whipped."

So you are coming to an internet site to design your fire protection?

Did you contact your insurance carrier,they will help if you do not want to follow and "expert".

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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[khagberg]

LCREP - I'm not sure where in my post you saw me asking for someone on this site to design our fire system...I was just asking if anyone had any other codes that they knew of as to where to look. When you speak with insurance companies they won't give you any specifics, and they always will state the highest possible case, have you ever called you car insurance provider and asked them...what do you think I need?? I doubt it!!

CDAFD - The expert recommended that we install a 485,000 gallon water storage tank on site. Then that we put a sprinkler system on a tank that has foam protection on it. Seems like a bad idea, why put water on something that has foam on it, it will just wash away all the foam then spread the fire. They also recommended putting sprinkler protection on a tank that does not store flammables, and is not in the same area, and has no pool fire risk, hence the reason it was put in where it is. The large storage tank is so large that it won't actually even fit on our property!!! We are a small facility with other industries so expanding our property line is not even an option.

As I mentioned I'm just curious if there are any other guidance documents out there that I could look at. The company used NFPA 36 for a bunch of things, and we are not even a Solvent Extraction Plant...hence my pencil whipping comment. I've tried to call them back and they won't return my calls or emails, so I'm at a little bit of a loss, just looking for some ideas, that's all, not solutions.

Sorry for the ranting!!

 

[stookeyfpe]

If you're looking for which standard applies, it will be NFPA 15. This unit operation is located outdoors and NFPA 15 applies to water spray systems, which are commonly used to protect pressure vessels and similar equipment.

Based on your process description and without knowing anything else, my first inclination is that if a water spray system is desired, protection should involve the three lowest level of the tower.

 

[b1ueshift]

This begs the question, are you getting a building permit to build this? If so, what building code does the AHJ (authority having juristiction) require? Do they require you to engage an architect? If so, talk to him about what codes are applicable.

If you weren't planning on getting a building permit, I suggest you consider getting one.

 

[stookeyfpe]

Building codes in the US generally exempt unit operations in refineries and petrochemical plants from a building permit. This sounds like a distillation column, which is outside the scope of the International Building Code for a building permit.

 

[cdafd]

Yes a ahj may have standards,

But they are going to still tell the owner to submit a design for review, the ahj could just say build to appropriate nfpa standard and they will review it

 

[khagberg]

Thanks for the info guys, I have a copy of NFPA 15 so I will read through it. From my reading and understanding we are exempted from the building code as you guys suggested. We basically run a crystallization process which does include distillation.

Our tower is 5 stories, and platforms consist mainly of grating and I had come across something in a standard that stated that fire protection was required up to 30ft, which would be the 3rd deck so it's nice to see that someone who is experienced with this also stated that, as us Chem E's are the best at fire protection =)

From what I've also gathered is that any design you implement should be approved by a local administrator, not sure if that's the right terminology, but in our case it seems to be the local fire chief, does that sound correct?

 

[LCREP]

khagberg

I work for an insurance company and would be the person that would come out and give you "recommendations" based on my review of your operation. I assume you have an insurance carrier involved, perhaps you have a high detectable and they do not come by often?? Also not sure if you are in the USA. For sites like yours the insurance co would be out a few times a year. They would also review fire protection plans. So bottom line see if they can get the insurance co to "help" you, since they will pay the claim they will have an interest in what you are doing. Ask your carrier if they have a "Risk Engineer" or Loss Control Rep that is what we are called.

Take a look at the FM Data Sheets, "Hazards" you will find what you are looking for and then some.

http://www.fmglobal.com/fmglobalregistration/

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Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[stookeyfpe]

Khagberg,

If your plant is in the US, generally the local fire official will need to review the design for compliance and issue a construction permit. The fire official will also need to witness tests of the system in accordance with NFPA 15.

 

[khagberg]

We are located within the US...our insurance company comes out around once per year. The last time they were on site was in late 2010, and they did conduct an audit. In the fire protection they referenced our sprinkler system inside of our "warehouse" area, basically an area where finished product is stored, no flammables present. For our process tower and production area the only statement that was made was that "the process area does not have a fire protection system such as a deluge sprinkler system" and that was it.

Thanks for the link to the FM Global information, I am not familiar with any of that information but will look through it, and try to take it all in.

Thanks for all of the information regarding this, I appreciate it, looks like I have a lot of reading to do this weekend

 

[cdafd]

KHa

Would go with information from Stookey

Depending on where your plant is located city/county big/small the design may be reviewed by the ahj. Some counties cities do not review plans

I do not know the credentials of your "expert" but you may look into hiring a fire protection engineer that has done work on similar projects like yours. This will help with the design and also hire them to inspect the installation

 

[LCREP]

Khag,

Give your insurance company a call and tell them what you are doing and ask them for feedback.Take names and record the request and response. If you do something they do not like they MAY ask you to redo it or raise your insurance rates. If they have no interest they can not come back at you. Make sure they are your "property" insurance carrier. Property insurance premiums will be going up in 2012, 2011 had a lot of global losses earthquakes,tornado, etc etc.

Your warehouse may not have flammable or combustible liquids, but perhaps plastic, wood which burn real nice. About 50% of the warehouses we look at the sprinkler protection is not adequate.



****************************************
Fire Sprinklers Save Firefighters’ Lives Too!

 

[khagberg]

I made sure that the insurance report I had was from the Property Insurance company and I did meet with the guy when he was on site in 2010 as I gave him the tour of the facility.

I'm going to try as your suggesting and contact the insurance company again and try to get some more specifics into what they are looking for.

Our warehouse inspection report did state that our fire protection in there was adequate, so we should be okay there.

The company we used for this was one that we have used in the past and have had great results. They have done a bunch of work for us in relation to explosive dusts and control systems. The guy that did the fire work one of their experts on the subject and traveled over 1500 miles to come to our facility, so you can see why I am a little frustrated. I will look into finding a FPE in my area, and see what my options are..thanks again for all of ideas, much appreciated!

 

[b1ueshift]

NFPA 15 will tell you how to build a water spray system for exposure protection, but it won't tell you whether or not you need one for your application. That will be covered by some other code, or alternatively, by a project specific engineering assessment.

 

[stookeyfpe]

Given that Khagberg raised the question and respects reports from insurance underwriters, I think we can all assume he is seeking some basic fire protection guidance before his company executes an engineered design.

His questions have hopefully been asked and answered. As I have stated before, this is an engineering forum, not a one stop shop for everyone's fire protection questions.

 

[StoneCold]

Khagberg
I will start out saying I am not a fire protection expert, but I have been involved in a few of these things. Based on your comments you might want to compare the report to a few facts that I can give you.
Foam fire protection is really just foam added to the water. That is the normal situation and it is a good option for hydrocarbon fires.
In high hazard areas such as tanks the fire protection coverage is called out in two ways. Either 0.3gpm per sq ft of tank surface area, or 0.3gpm per sqft of floor area. If you calculate that out on your own that should be close to what your expert came up with.
If that flow demand can't be met by the water distibution system coming to your plant then you may need a tank. Lots of water districts will not let you take all the water they have at one time. They have other users.
So if all the water was coming from a tank and you needed a 120 minute supply of water then they probably calculated out that you need close to 4000 gpm.
Maybe you don't like what the report said, and there are different ways of doing things. But maybe this little bit of info will help you rationalize the report you have.

Regards
Stonecold

 

[khagberg]

Stonecold

Thanks for the input, good to hear that another ChemE gets to do these things as well =) From what I have read I understand the 0.3 gpm/sq ft calculation, and have come across that in several area's, so I think that part is okay. The part that didn't make sense was the foam, I know that the foam is just a small tank that contains the foam and then is mixed in with water and sprayed through nozzles, which in our case will work great, as we have 30,000+ gal of hyrdrocarbons on-site. The part that confused me was the foam addition and then spraying the same area with water, and since that area is a tank farm, wouldn't it just flood, thus pushing out all of the foam that is suppressing the fire potential. In your experience have the tank farms you've seen been mostly foam protected, water protected, or some combination?

Thanks
Kiel

 

[StoneCold]

Khagberg
The foam works with the water. There is no way you could just spray AFFF foam on a fire, it actaually comes as an oil. It is added to the water through and educter, so you get 97% water and 3% foam. It does not end up like shaving cream or the foam you see in movies where an airplane is crashing. It is more like the bubbles on top of sink with a lot of soap in it.
Does the area flood? Yes that is why you have to plan for a route for the water/foam to run off into. We have a big open top concrete tank that ours runs into. If you have deluge heads you will usually have foam. If you have closed heads and a pre-action sprinkler system it wil just use water, no foam.
A pre-action system is dry until one of your sensors picks up a heat rise or one of the heads goes off, then the system gets filled with water to fight the fire. They have to be drained after use. They are a pain in the butt in areas the get below freezing. I have both at my facility, I would choose the foam system for effectiveness and easier maintenance on the piping runs, they free drain.
Regards
StoneCold