Fire Truck Turnaround in Dead End Parking Lot

[JoeJitzu]

Howdy, everyone,

I'm designing a commercial site for a 10,000 s.f. medical office building. The site is tight, only an acre, kind of long and narrow. I laid the building out with the long side (the "front") perpendicular to the public street. One double loaded parking lot (18' stalls, 24' aisle, 18' stalls) parallels the front of the building, then wraps around the far end of the building. The back part of the site has a steep slope and will need a retaining wall to allow the parking to fit (retaining wall will be about 14' at highest point.

I'm not sure how this will work with fire apparatus access. On such a small, commercial type lot, would fire trucks responding to an emergency park on the public street, or would they come into the site using the parking lot as access? The parking lot is more than 150' deep, so would fire apparatus turnarounds conforming to the international fire code be required? If so, this won't work. The lot coming off the public street (parallel to the long side of the building) and the building itself take up most of the width of the lot, and the steep topo at the end restricts the area where a turnaround would need to be. I have a little more than enough parking for the building (I could lose probably 2-3 spaces in the back if needed), but even then I'm not sure a turnaround built to code would fit.

If fire apparatus won't be operating from the public street and will instead come into the development via the parking lot, there won't be enough space for the trucks to turn around as per code. In such a situation, if the building were sprinkled, could I waive the need for a fire apparatus turnaround? Or is there a possibility to get a waiver or a variance from the county fire official on this? There are properties close by that don't meet code for turnarounds, some of which have their buildings well off the public street. Some have absolutely no turnaround provisions on parking lots extending well over 150'.

Your insights and advice will be greatly appreciated.

 

[cdafd]

Without a site plan, hard to answer


Normally all portions of the building have to be able to be reached by stretching the fire hose, 150 feet from a city street around the building, or approved fire lane.

 

[JoeJitzu]

Hey, thanks for your response. The 150' is no problem, but turning a fire truck around would be almost impossible. It's a one story building so no ladder trucks at least. I could probably take out a few parking spaces at the western-most corner and increase the width of the drive there to 24' and use a larger radius, which would help in backing a truck out. I've attached a link to the site plan.

 

[cdafd]

Ok how about some building dimensions

Depending on the city

From where the fire truck can park on the street and on property, you only have to reach all portions of the building, as the hose is stretched.

So say the long side of the building is 100 ft
And width is say 75

If you park in the street, you hit The non parking lot side, but not all of the backside


So say you bring the fire lane on property only 125 feet. Stretch the hose from there and you easily reach the entire back of the building,

With only 125 foot fire lane,,,,, no turnaround needed.

 

[cdafd]

Looks like by the blue lines

You can put in a fire lane 140 or less, avoiding turnaround

Building dimensions will tell

 

[JoeJitzu]

Building dimensions 139' x 72'. 40' front setback. It doesn't look like I can cover the entire exterior with 150' hose lays. May need to sprinkle the building.

 

[cdafd]

If the city will let you

Bring the fire lane in 149 feet or less, no turnaround needed


From there, that is where the fire truck parks,,,,


Start measuring the 150


At the front, truck pulls in and stops at the front of the building, measure across the front and down the back side

With two points of where the fire truck sets, you should hit all exterior portions.


I do love sprinklers, you can add for good measure.

 

[JoeJitzu]

Thanks for your advice, cdafd. Still not quite following you, though. I added another plan view. I show 150' as measured from 2 points on the main road, which covers the side paralleling the road and part of the back and front sides. Then I show the truck parked at the northwestern front corner and measure 150' again, which covers the upper end and the rest of the back (barely, only about 2' overlap). This position also covers the remainder of the front. Only problem is the fire lane would need to be 203' (as measured from the ROW), so a turnaround would be needed according to code. But there are properties all around this one where the fire lanes are as long or longer (some reaching over 300'), with no turnarounds, and the lots have more room and less steep topo to work with. Forgive me if I'm not understanding, but if you can point out something I'm not seeing I would appreciate it.

 

[cdafd]

Ok i don't know how to draw and post, so will give you my best kindergarten math,,

And this is if the ahj lets you do it


As you look at your drawing

1. Park the fire truck at the bottom right corner of the building, on property

2. From bottom right corner of building, stretch/ measure hose across small front of building 72 feet by your statement.

3. Take a left and finish stretching/ measure hose till you hit 150 feet, Which which will add another 78 feet. equals 150'

4. Move the fire truck down to the bottom left corner, pull the hose and stretch/ measure across the other short width 72 feet.

5. Take a right, and stretch/ measure to the other 150" mark which should be only 61 ' 139-78= 61

61+72 = 133 17' left over

But with out a site plan to scale, you might be 12 feet short, if you only bring the fire lane into the property 150 max.

Scale it with 150 foot fire lane, fire truck parked there, and measuring the left short side, to the back of the building, where the other 150' mark hits, and see what you come up with,

If 12 feet short they might give you a break???????


Can't see the blue marks and numbers in the fire lane, with the purple haze in the fire lane.

 

[cdafd]

Let me see if this upload works

Just do the math with a scaled plan, and see how far it goes, by bringing the fire lane in 149 feet.

 

[fel3]

I suggest meeting with the local fire department before you expend too much additional time on this question. The maximum hose lay can differ between fire departments. If your agency has a long maximum, maybe they don't need to drive their equipment into the parking lot. On the other hand, they might be able to help you resolve the turn around question. For example, would rotating the building to be parallel to the top property line create enough space to create a turnaround? Perhaps not, but it might be worth a try.

You also need to find out where they want fire hydrant(s), if any new ones are required, and if sprinklers are required or not, etc. The local fire department will also specify the required fire flow for hydrants and sprinklers, as applicable.

============
"Is it the only lesson of history that mankind is unteachable?"
--Winston S. Churchill