Firms not practicing "equal oppurtunity" 7

[COEngineeer]

Ok, so I sent my resume to this one company a few days ago. I think I match the experience they need pretty good. I dont know what happened, but the person that received the email mistakenly replied/forwarded the email to me and said (direct quote) "Not sure, he looks pretty foreign, but has been here for a long time..."

I am from Asia. I have been in the US for 12 years. Went to undergrad and graduate school in the US. Got my experience in the US. I have a greencard. What would you do if you were in my situation? My wife (an attorney) thinks I should do something about it. I feel that I should just let it go. I did reply to her and pointed out her mistake and this is what she replied:

"I do thank you for pointing out my obvious ignorance. I do hope that you will accept my utmost apologies for my actions.

I have passed on your resume and someone will contact you if our manager feels you the experience that we are looking for.

Thank you again for your interest in our firm."

What do you guys think?

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Lots of thoughts on this one, but I don't want to make the reply 10 pages long...

First off, would the position require any form of clearance? If so, the company is rightly concerned about what issues your foreigner status may have on projects they work on, getting clearance, etc. All it takes is one long-lost family member to be in the wrong place at the wrong time to kill off a year-long investigation, and then the company is out all of that time/money. The comment may have been taken out of context.

If not, then I would definitely say that comment was inappropriate. That said, you have to consider what long-term effects it might have on your career to chase it down from a legal standpoint. What if you sue and win (or worse, lose), only to have this company pass it along through the grapevine that you're a troublemaker. Right or wrong, not everyone does what's ethical and/or legal, so you may have a hidden black mark on your resume from the beginning. I'm not saying it's right, I'm simply saying you have to consider it.

If you decide to pursue this on the legal battlefield, you need to make up your mind NOW. If they bring you in for an interview (and they may possibly do so just to protect their rears) but do not offer you a job, a lawsuit later for discrimination will look like sour grapes... you didn't get what you wanted, so you're going to make them pay.

Even so, if they don't offer you a interview, the burden of proof is still on you to prove the people responsible for hiring were prejudiced against you due to race. That's not easy, even with a secretary's email like that. You would have to show to the court that your experience was within line of other candidates and deserving of an interview, just like them. Not impossible, but not necessarily easy. If you're just coming out of school, it's even more difficult.

My first impulse would be "Sue the bastards!", but cooler heads and a night of rest might make me think more practically about the situation. Still consider a lawsuit, but consider the possible consequences. And get a GOOD lawyer.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[GTstartup]

At first glance the statement...

"Not sure, he looks pretty foreign, but has been here for a long time..."

Could be argued (in court) to be either postive or negative. (Of course we all know it's negative.)

But in light of the apology, I think you have an iron clad case of discrimination on the basis of National Origin.

You can tell by the apology that this particular person is sweating bullets and even the apology would maybe get her fired.

I personally would not work there, and probably would take it up with the EEOC

 

[COEngineeer]

Here is the thing, there is not one thing I listed on my resume indicating that I am a foreigner other than my rather unusual last name. I didnt put my high school on my resume because I dont think it is necessary unless you are fresh from college. I came to the country when I was 18 for college. So all of my education and work experience were all in the US.

This is a lesson for everyone to check your email before you click "send" button. No the company mainly do shopping centers, schools, office buildings, etc. Pretty sure they dont require any type of security clearance.

They want 4 years of experience, PE a plus. I finished my grad school plus 5 years of experience (2.5 is design exp)and I do have a PE license. All the computer programs they listed, I know how to use them (use it frequently). There is no doubt I am qualified. Plus they also do a lot of residential designs which is what I do right now.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[COEngineeer]

I do feel I want to make the world a better place. I feel that if I file a complaint then the people who are effected by it would have a grudge against minority. However, if I don't file anything, they may continue doing that on their hiring process. I am a mellow guy and don't usually get involved in confrontation.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[TheTick]

You may be right, but you can't litigate their attitude into place.

There are places that will treat you fairly. Move along and find one. Don't write off the company as a whole. Every large company has its poor managers. Sounds like you found one.

Hard to say what I would do exactly until it happens to me. I probably would send them a reply indicating that I have lost interest because their attitude is not indicative of a healthy work environment.

I've been on the flip side of this, missing out on opportunities earmarked for quotas. A fact that one sometimes has to live with.

 

[MintJulep]

Get a lawyer. File suit.

They will pay big bucks to make it go away before going to court.

You get a nice pocket full of green, and everyone moves on.

 

[COEngineeer]

This is a small company. I say no more than 8 people in the office.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[MikeHalloran]

Filing a suit may, likely will, make it impossible for you to work in this country in your chosen field ever again.

So the suit is only a good idea if you can win, and if you can then bag enough money to not _need_ to work ever again.

They don't have that much money.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[JAE]

I'd file a complaint with the EEOC.

Getting a lawyer and filing a suit may not be a good idea - lawyers cost BIG bucks and proving damages may be more difficult than you think.

They may have violated Equal Employment laws, but as for a tort, they didn't necessarily do a huge amount of damage to you.

The verdict may end up that they pay a big fine to the government, they pay theirs and your lawyer fees, and you get a $1.00 judgement.

 

[BJC]

JAE is right on. If you think this was bad wait till you win a suit. No one will touch you with a 3 meter pole.

 

[COEngineeer]

Yeah, they will probably reply and ask me to come for an interview. I would probably just say I am not interested anymore.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[TheTick]

The rules are different for small companies (under 20 employees) regarding "equal opportunity". Basically, there are none.

Often, small companies are concerned about the complications of dealing w/ visa requirements and would rather not deal with it and avoid foreigners altogether.

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

Why not? I question everyone's judgment, including my own.

 

[hokie66]

COEngineer,

I would ignore the original comment, accept the apology, and move on. She admitted that she was ignorant, and that is worse than being "foreign". I doubt that this redneck attitude is representative of the company, but you will find out if you interview.

 

[Qshake]

I would file a complaint with the EEO and BBB for what it is worth. At the very least, let them endure more scrutiny over their policies and potential bad managers. To proliferate this when you have a chance to do something, however small, is just as tragic as their prejudice.

I hope you never have to encounter that again.



Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[jmw]

Prejudice is every where, it includes ageism, sexism, religion and in fact, just about every "ism" you can think of; prejudices against fat people, people with tattoos, people with piercings (Ugh! being served in a supermarket by some spotty youth with bits of metal sprouting all over his face was not a pleasant experience for me), people who smoke cigarettes, people who don't believe in global warming (that one might change over time)people in SUVs, people on bicycles bad drivers. The list is growing all the time.

I'd also suggest we have all, no matter who we are or what our backgrounds, experienced some form of unreasoned prejudice against us.

We might not always call it prejudice. Frankly, in any working environment there are people I'd consider more dangerous and despicable because they can actively do one harm. The brown-nosers, the back stabbers. Those who just don't like us because we are smarter than they are or work harder or better.

We also most of us have done or said something stupid. I know I have. I like to think I have learned a little bit and moved on.

The real problem is not to treat every remark as indicating some deep rooted and reprehensible prejudice when it could be equally regarded as simply an unfortunate remark or even simply an observation.

Now, look at what you said was in the email:

"Not sure, he looks pretty foreign, but has been here for a long time..."

It is true isn't it?
Does it even imply anything derogatory?

By the way, how does she know what you look like? did you include a photograph?

There is a danger that in a climate of increasing sensitivity or "awareness" we are more inclined to react more strongly than otherwise to what we think are prejudicial remarks.

The reply you had is interesting:

"I do thank you for pointing out my obvious ignorance. I do hope that you will accept my utmost apologies for my actions.
I have passed on your resume and someone will contact you if our manager feels you the experience that we are looking for.
Thank you again for your interest in our firm."

Was this the response of an out and out bigot? or the response of someone who said something and regrets it, possibly because it apparently gave personal offence, not because it might get him/her into court or even because they think what they said was actually prejudicial but simply potentially sensitive.

Perhaps she feels real bad because you have taken offence where none was intended.

You judge.

By the way, a common phrase is "No offence intended." to which the reply is "None taken." (even, often when both sentiments are obviously false) and this ought to be more often the case as it is a formula that does what all the legislation cannot do, it helps us move on.

Legislation will never eradicate prejudice. Nor will being overly sensitive to it. Ignoring something is often the best way forward. Often, not always. When you come up with a real bigot, then you may be obliged to do something.

The question is, what did you reply to her response? Did you say, "Thank you for your reply. No appology was necessary as no offence was taken."
It doesn't have to be true. It could be interesting to see what comes of it.
It is then you who are making a positive response, a response you can be proud of.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[msquared48]

I agree with most of the sentiments above... BJC, JAE, theTick, jmw...

Everybody and every cultural group have their idiosyncrasies (that's pronounced "idiots and crazies")that irritate other people and groups. That makes us all individuals. Not a good thought, but it is reality.

What the woman did is unacceptable, but ignorable as she is obviously ignorant. If you sue, as other people have said, you are marking yourself and ultimately making it more difficult to get a job in the future. Let it go. I firmly believe, and have seen it proved true so many times, that what goes around comes around.

To pursue a lawsuit would ultimately be a lose-lose situation for you. Ultimately, you will have to ask yourself if you would work there after you win the lawsuit. Then ask yourself, after the word gets around the local engineering network, will I be able to work ANYWHERE here? Your call.

LET...IT...GO...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[COEngineeer]

But those lawyers need to make money somehow Yeah, I am letting it go. I have an interview with another firm on Wednesday (the firm that I really want to join). Thanks everyone!

Never, but never question engineer's judgement

 

[hokie66]

COEngineer,

I for one think you have made the right decision. Good luck!

 

[msquared48]

I second the motion...

All in favor say aye...

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering