Follow up on Leaving Structural Engineering (Bridge) for Other Employment 4

[gendna2]

thread731-447589

This thread is more therapy for me and some information for anyone else that runs across this. Four score and seven years ago I asked for advice on leaving structural engineering for a highly paid facility management position working for the federal government. The thread is referenced and I want to let you know where I am and how things are going.

A couple of years after applying for the job, passing the interview, and getting cleared, I received an offer out of the blue and had to decide whether or not to change my life in about three to four days. I said yes to the job but had/have econd thoughts, and still have emotionally painful, almost anxiety attack levels of doubt concerning my decision.

When I wrote the original thread, I was fairly sold on taking the new job, but once real decision time came it became the hardest decision of my life to this point.

Leaving bridge engineering during the most productive years of my life is extremely painful. But let’s throw some numbers out there so y’all can digest.

Bridge paid 70K/year, but came out to about 3.7K/month take home pay after taxes, health insurance, and a heavy pension plan “tax”. Housing and utilities, including cell phone, come out to about 2.0K/month for a family of four. That leaves 1.5K/month for food and gasoline; and we consume 1K/month in food alone with no eating out. Take out some money for car insurance; a small remittance for a needy family member, and we are left with no disposable income or savings.

We have one paid off car that is more than 10 years old; my wife has no career; and it makes no financial sense for her to work. We do not eat out; vacations outside of camping or day trips are impossible; and any car breakdown or unexpected expense taps savings that are slowly dwindling. We have no cable TV, just internet, and old smart phones that work fine…but old. Everything we have is really old, old furniture, old PC…point being, we have absolutely no wiggle room.

Long term, bridge can go up to 90K/year…maybe in 5-10 years. Consulting might pay more up front now, but the workload is crushing, work life balance is poor, you’re not in charge or driving the big decisions…and let’s get real, the pay raise of 10%-20% is not worth it. I would never give up my DOT job with a proper pension and work life balance to eke out another 10-20 grand and go on billable hours... heck no. Just saying for comparison purposes.

///

The fed job pays 90K/year now; not 5-10 years from now. On top of that, all housing/utilities are paid for, including internet. Depending on where I live, I can make anywhere from 10%-60% on top of the 90K/year. With the additional allowances, I will make more than my boss’s boss now, not 20 years from now.

Health insurance is half the cost of the DOT. The pension scheme is far less taxing than the DOT, and has a generous matching 401K. I can retire at 50 from this job and go back to bridge engineering then if I want to.

Remember, I have no second income and four mouths to feed. It’s not me + another engineer/doctor/lawyer/nurse/teacher/whatever in my home; it’s just me money wise.

///

The rub… give up what I love to do and not break down mentally. Work is life, whether we want to accept it or not. The majority of waking hours are spent at work. My old job was like a vacation in many respects and I was both proud and motivated to do it.

I am motivated with my new job, and proud of it, don’t get me wrong, but it’s not the same.

///

I love bridge engineering and highly recommend it. I love the subject matter, love working for the owner, just love it. There is nothing “wrong” with it.

The problem is high inflation, especially housing inflation. If you have no support network in an urban area and are a family on one income, you will struggle. Most people are not in this situation; they have a spouse that works or live in an inherited home. Housing costs are the real killer though. I owned a house before and while it is significantly cheaper than renting per square foot; it’s like owning a giant car. When you have a breakdown, you need to spend thousands to fix the problem.

For me, if I stay in structural engineering, which is essentially a trade requiring a degree, then by the time my salary goes up the cost of food, housing, and eventually fuel will catch right up. It’s a trade which requires X years for Y salary; unlike management jobs that can supercharge your salary.

My advice is to go at structural engineering with a second income in the household, or maybe work somewhere your family already owns a home. If you can eliminate housing costs or add 30K to 40K to a typical mid-level structural salary you will be fine. If you’re single, or have no kids, then none of this applies to you now…but may in the future.

///

For me, part of the problem is that I tasted real money prior to structural engineering and never had to consult. I was in the military as an officer and sadly, made far more money there than I did with an MS in structures. The delta was massive and depressing, considering how much more societally important my bridge job was than my military one…at least imho.

I know MILPERS my age who own properties…plural. I met people (enlisted and officer) retiring in their 40s from the military who played their cards right and had two or three paid off rental properties. By the time I am 40, on my old structures track, I would not even be halfway through a thirty year mortgage…

Out in the civilian world, I still kept in touch with former military who went straight to the feds doing various GS management jobs, or continued working in the military. It hurts when you know you are working harder, are book smarter, and yet your peers in the same age group are easily supporting families on one salary, with a far better financial future.

So I took the fed job and here I am. Depressed at leaving my craft, but without any options that are realistically better. In the words of Mr. Hershey, I guess “that is what the money is there for”.

 

[Lomarandil]

Appreciate the follow up!

I see a lot of reference to housing cost... are you in NOVa?

I think the impact of geographical location is perpetually understated in career and salary decisions. And if you have ties (family, etc) to a high cost of living area, that's great! But there are repercussions also.

----
just call me Lo.

 

[phamENG]

gendna2 - I wasn't all that active back when your first thread happened, and didn't participate. Interestingly, I went through a not-so-different transition myself recently. I was Navy - enlisted, though - and then went on to get my degree and start into engineering. My salary was comparable to yours, though working DOT your other benefits were probably better as I was in consulting. I got an offer doing essentially facilities management for an industrial site as their plant engineer.

I struggled with the decision for many of the same reasons you cite. They promised design work would be part of it, but I knew going into it any design work would be pretty narrowly focused. The raise was essentially identical to what you got, and the benefits improved a lot, too. I took the job as my second child was born, so I will say that it was as much or more a financial decision than a willful career shift.

I spent a year there. I worked with some incredible people and did a few interesting things, but I guess I'm just meant to be in design and consulting. I want to be an engineer too much. I had an opportunity arise that allowed me to leave without taking a big financial hit, but I doubt I would have hung around more than another few years even if I had to go back to my previous position with the lower pay (long enough to get the kids into public school).

If it gives you more time to do more things you enjoy with the people you love and gives you the security you and your family want, then I'd say it's worth it. If you really need a design fix every now and then, maybe you could reach out to some firms and see if they'd be interested in using you on a part time/hourly basis.

Whatever happens, I wish you the best of luck.

 

[phamENG]

Lo - given the military references and housing cost descriptions, I'm guessing the OP and I neighbors here in Hampton Roads.

 

[MrHershey]

Good to hear from you. Will offer both congratulations and condolences.

Really hard decision to make. Follow your passion and struggle to get by or sell out but put your family in a really good spot. Everyone's different. I'd probably make the same decision you did. 30% pay raise plus all housing costs paid for and significantly cheaper insurance? Depending on area and how well you behaved yourself budgeting on housing expenses, that's probably effectively anywhere from a 50% to 100% pay raise. And comes with shorter hours and more or less permanent job security. I love what I do but that'd be really hard to turn down. Would take it and probably give myself a real hard time for doing so. But again, that's what the money is for.

 

[dauwerda]

So I took the fed job and here I am. Depressed at leaving my craft, but without any options that are realistically better.

What does better mean to you? Honestly.

We only get one life, I don't care how much money you make, if at the end of the day you are depressed you need to make a change. Planning for the future is all well and good, but if it means being miserable every day the plan probably needs to change. Making sacrifices for something you believe in is one thing - typically these types of sacrifices leave you feeling fulfilled (tired, exhausted, beat down, etc - Yes, but also fulfilled, not depressed). For some people, working a job that pays better but isn't their first love can still make them feel fulfilled because they know that extra money gives their family more/better opportunities (school, vacations, whatever one might value). For others this may not be the case - doing something that the only benefit you see is money, and really the only reason you feel like you need it, is to compete with your friends in social gatherings probably won't make one feel fulfilled.


Two scenarios:
1: Your kids go to a great school and watch you get more and more depressed because you hate what you do. This depression gets carried over into home life.
2: Your kids go to an average school and see how happy you are because you get to wake up and do what you love to do everyday. This joy and happiness gets carried over into your home life.

Which environment do you think is more positive and impactful on a child's life?


Sometimes all we need is a new view on why we are doing what we are doing and it will change our entire mentality towards it. Sometimes it will make us realize we are doing exactly what we should be, other times it may be that we need to completely change our path. But, at the end of the day, if we don't get any type of fulfillment/joy out of what we are doing then we need to find something else to do.

I grew up with my dad working in the construction industry (he was a superintendent for a medium sized GC) he made decent money, built us a nice house on some acreage, and he was absolutely miserable (I saw this in the limited hours he wasn't at work). He sold everything, moved us to a small town and purchased a trailer house to live in and started his own residential construction business. His/our life did a complete 180. He lowered his standard of living by "traditional values" but increased our quality of life immensely. He has never been in debt again, and to this day will say that is was the hardest, scariest, and best decision he has ever made. I don't share this to say it is the only route or even the correct route for everyone, only to draw light to the fact that there are plenty of realistic options out there. (I also went from a "great" school to an "average" school in this process and I know for me, scenario 2 was much better.)

I have recently been introduced to Rob Bell, he has multiple books, does tours, and has a podcast and I have found all of his works to be great (I am in the process of catching up on the podcast) - can't recommend him enough. One of his more recent tours hits on a lot of what I seem to be seeing in your post(s) check out the recording, maybe it will help put some things in perspective:

https://robbell.com/portfolio/an-introduction-to-joy/

Sorry for the rambling post - but I truly hope you are able to find the path that works for you.

 

[STrctPono]

gendna2,

I appreciate you updating your previous post with this. I went back and read it from 2 years ago. I too am a structural bridge engineer and have struggled with a similar dilemma as you but from the private consultant point of view. I was frankly terrified to leave a high stress well paying consulting position to move states and be destitute in a low paying lower stress DOT civil servant work environment. Up to this point, I have not had the bravery like you to leave what I know for something unfamiliar but have made adjustments here and there in my life to increase my happiness.

Unfortunately having a spouse that brings in zero income probably gave you a skewed sense of reality (which you did recognize in your post). Any earnings from your wife would be immediate disposable income and probably could have saved your engineering career. However, (I don't know) she may have been by your side all through those years of military work moving from city to city. Holding down the fort while you were stationed overseas. That must earn her some due credit.

It's interesting to see it from your perspective. Honestly, with your last sentence, I couldn't tell if you regret it or not. It seems that you lament your decision but realize that it was the correct move for your family. But now you have the hindsight to see that if you could have you would have made some early on changes in life to help make it work in Engineering.

 

[gendna2]

Thank you for your posts, advice, and being there. Especially Mr. Hershey because I used your advice in particular as a tipping point in making the decision.

Overall, I am absolutely impressed and blessed to have met a group of people on the internet who did not insult me, ignored me, etc... but who actually cared. God bless all of you. Y'all are great on this forum.

///

dauwerda: Great post man, I asked myself the same question concerning what better means to me. Specifically, I looked at my age and realize that I am no longer young enough where there is plenty of time for course corrections and there is one life to live.

Unfortunately, with less than 20K in the bank and sinking slowly we had no wiggle room and I wish I could have done what your father did, but decided otherwise. Financial reality hit us hard when we moved into our present quarters and realized that before we were in a tiny apartment that sucked up more than 50% of my take home pay with the only thing to our name being a 14 year old car. It wasn't even a question of good versus average schools, it was "holy cow, we are headed to a financial reckoning."

I will tell you that the wife and I have agreed that four years into this job we will reassess and see if we want to go back to my previous work which is obviously what I love doing. We believe that we can save enough money in 4 to 6 years with this work where we can pay off a substantial portion of a home, purchase outright one or two vehicles, and be able to get by without any issues on a structural salary. She can go work then as well, at least part time, since the kids will be in school.

Personally, I hope that somehow 4-6 years from now, I like my current job so much that we power on through to 50 and then I can come back and be a bridge design engineer for fun. Certainly, the old lady has a heart and realizes that structures, especially bridges, are my hobby... truly my hobby.

///

STrctPono: My wife has worked her tail off with the kids and put up with a lot...a whole lot. While I am typing this, she is taking them out for a walk and she has more than earned her keep. Looking back, I wish I did things different; not marrying a different person different, but other choices certainly.

Structural and civil engineering are great. I am glad I studied them, glad to have worked them in a design field, but maybe I could have timed things differently in my career.

///

Folks, thank you for listening and providing some feedback. Good food for thought all around. As I said, my change does not have to be permanent; we will assess a few years down the road and "worst case" if I make it to 50...then I work for fun...which is pretty cool too.

I don't particularly plan on retiring if I get to keep designing, but it would be nice to reach a position in my 50s when I know I work for fun. If that does not happen, and I say enough is enough, I want back to "normal", then I can hopefully go back to my happy place in 4-6 years.

 

[CWB1]

Best of luck to you, but honestly your story and figures sound very odd to me. I would be surprised to hear a state CE was earning only $70k out in BFE, most I know are ~$100k after a few years with a few significantly higher due to being in high cost of living areas or in a special position like city engineer. Its also really odd to hear a govt employee griping about benefits, they usually have low or zero cost benefits and phenomenal pension plans. My folks for example retired at 57 after 26 years of teaching on 75% salary with the same zero-cost benefits they had throughout their careers.

Moving overseas for a small bump to $90k also seems rather odd unless you're the adventurous type. The usual rule of thumb IME is 150% of your salary + extra benefits (additional emergency insurance for air ambulance, extra vacation time & tickets, private language training for the family, chauffeurs/personal assistants in some regions, etc), I would also want a $10-20k bonus up front. In most American-family-friendly areas the (double) taxation will more than eat that extra income before accounting for a (likely) higher cost of living, and this is an election year. Both candidates have vowed to continue the past few years' drastic shrink of our overseas presence and to continue to bring civilian jobs back within the military (assuming this is supporting the military). You could very well be like many expats recently and stuck paying your own return costs in a few months if the job and visa disappears, which is a big risk for little/no reward. Mention of free govt housing also makes me think you have a less than honest recruiter, that's a diplomatic benefit not offered in years to regular govt employees (legally anyway).

JMO but I would suggest finding another engineering position stateside that pays decently, preferably in a low cost of living area. If you wait until 50 to come back to engineering then I wouldn't plan on being hired if you apply. By the sound of it, you simply made the common mistake of moving to a ridiculously expensive area hoping for a high income and only finding a low one. Engineers are very nomadic simply due to the profession, very few remain in their birth state much less home area and many of us don't even stay in one place more than a few years - we receive higher paying or more intellectually interesting offers and move. Many of us also have spouses who either dont work or earn little so dont think you are alone in either respect. If the rest of us can succeed in this profession then you can too! Personally, I paid off our first and almost our second home while putting my wife through six years of college. She now earns less than I did as a diesel apprentice 20 years ago so is going back to college for another bachelors while I pay off the third home this decade, I'm hoping to have us debt-free again before graduation next year. Find yourself an area where <15% of your income covers a 15 year mortgage + taxes on a modest home, watch your budget closely otherwise, and focus on building up a healthy net worth for a few years until you can afford to relax and miss a year or three's employment - its a great feeling. JME but the only folks I know with 30 year notes are the ones living well above their means, making minimum payments on a home they can barely afford. Dont be that person.

 

[djs]

Instead of working in the private sector as a consultant, maybe a position with a private contractor? Better pay and doing what you like. I am a PE working for a private sector contactor, doing engineering (electrical) and getting well paid for it. I know in my area contractors are always looking for trained engineers.

 

[NorthCivil]

There is some pretty airey-fairy advice above.

if you have a family, your "happiness" at your job is low on the list of priorities. by the sounds of things, you like the facilities work, you just dont like the idea of leaving a low paying career you have heavily invested in. as long as your mood and attitude havent become worse when you are spending time with your family, ie. you arent unknowingly taking the results of this decision out on your family, leaving engineering was the best decision you could have made.

Do you really hate your day to day as a facilities man, and love your day to day as a structural designer? my experience in engineering is it is high stress, high risk, low reward.

working a job you like the idea of is not worth it, if you will one day wake up broke at retirement age, with no health insurance, no money to put your kids through college, and no money to take care of yourself.

have a read on the "sunk cost" theory. you have to cut your losses on your investment, which was your studies. and lets be honest, the engineering experience probably helped you land the job you have, the PE behind your name will lend you a lot of credibility at work, and likely may result in pay raises or other promotions. just being a qualified engineer has enormous benefits, especially if you are not working directly in engineering.

 

[gendna2]

NorthCivil: I agree with you and time will tell how much facilities work agrees with me, especially the total package of this new career. We drew a red line at four years to decide whether to stick it out, or go back to a more normal life. We hope to have beat the curve in savings by that point.

Job satisfaction is important and it is TBD. Job satisfaction = better performance imho.

///

CWB1: I used to think the way you do before I went into civil-structural engineering. All I can tell you is what I experienced and the previous thread and details here explain it well.

Bottom line, with boosts to my starting (let me emphasize starting) salary of about 20%-40% overseas, I will be making close to what my state bridge engineer makes. 90K is just the pay during training; overseas it easily goes over 110K. Due to it being a hard to fill federal job, and the federal "way", the salary climbs up at a steady pace on autopilot as you get automatic boosts in grade until a promotion decision point.

On the state level side, salaries are frozen, and the only way to go up in salary is to be promoted. In my state that is a fact. There are no steps between grades where I used to work. You pretty much have to apply for another job at a higher grade or wait for someone to leave/retire and apply for their post to get to the next grade.

I did not live in an expensive metropolitan area either, but my experience is that outside of a few hyper-expensive areas (NYC, San Francisco), a good school district and a well built home are comparable in price (300K to 500K). You can go a little lower, you can certainly go higher if you don't want to commute like crazy, but once you go lower than 250K you're usually significantly sacrificing school quality or there are issues with the house itself.

We definitely considered decamping to the boondocks if this opportunity did not come through, so that's an idea. It could have somehow worked in our case, as salaries were the same statewide, whether living in a city or a small town. Not a bad idea, but it never came to pass.

///

Good points, good advice, good discussion.

 

[CWB1]

On the state level side, salaries are frozen...

I did not live in an expensive metropolitan area either, but my experience is that outside of a few hyper-expensive areas (NYC, San Francisco), a good school district and a well built home are comparable in price (300K to 500K).

In most of the US a $300k home is considered high end, not your average middle-class family's. The median home price stateside is just under $250k, and that's skewed upward a bit by a few expensive cities. There are MANY $100k homes in nice areas, we were happy to get $120k for our two-acre home two miles from Purdue's campus in 2015. Our current two-acre home 15 mins from Detroit was $240k last year. The neighborhood is rather stuffy for my taste but the commute is easy, we never lock our doors, have a 2500 ft2 home, and a 24x48 garage to play in.

Frozen or low salaries would definitely be showstoppers for me, and are unavoidable in some areas. I would love to live in NY again but unfortunately state schools there pump out an excess of graduates so competition for engineering positions is intense and salaries significantly lower than most of the rest of the country. Thankfully that is a local, not national problem, and easily remedied by most upon graduation by moving to other states.

 

[phamENG]

I'll support the OP's statements on housing costs, assuming I'm correct in thinking we're more or less neighbors. Here in Hampton Roads, Virginia, $250k is probably the low end that I would pay for the same reasons he stated. Around here, once you get into areas with median home prices at or below $250k, school quality drops quickly and/or crime increases pretty fast.

My family is fortunate to live in one of the best school districts in the region (it floats every few years between 2 or 3 schools), and I'm not aware of a single development nearby with new homes below $350k, and most of those are the typical "builder quality" construction. If you want >2000sf and some decent upgrades, you're looking at closer to $400k. The apartments up the road (which still gives you a 25 to 35 minute commute to downtown Norfolk in easy to moderate traffic, which didn't exist pre-Covid), a 3 bedroom, 1500sf apartment rents for $2240/month. We got lucky and got an older and well cared for home. We got it at a really good price because it hasn't really been updated since it was built in the early 70s.

I'm not disputing your numbers generally, CWB1, but we have a skewed market. The military makes up a sizeable portion of our regional population, and so the influx of Basic Allowance for Housing dollars and frequent turnover drive the prices way up.

Even if I'm wrong and the OP is in Richmond or Northern VA, prices are still a lot higher than the rest of the state.

 

[CWB1]

Agreed pham. I wasn't arguing the housing costs mentioned, simply saying that IMHO the VA metros are all very expensive compared to most of the US and not a good representation of costs elsewhere. I enjoy the area, was stationed at Norfolk-Little Creek most of a year back in '02 and have a brother in Herndon, and frequently envy the weather there.

 

[phamENG]

Gotcha. Sorry for the misunderstanding. Thanks for your service. I was stationed on a ship in the yards in Newport News in '07, down to Norfolk in '09, and never left the area. I like it here, but I'll forever miss my Florida beaches.