Fraudulent Use of PE Stamp! 7

[tuggertoo]

My husband is a civil/mechanical P.E. Last week a developer in a nearby city called to question some HVAC plans bearing my husband's stamp. The project was unfamiliar to him. After listening to a general description by the developer, it became apparent that "someone" cut my husband's stamp off a set of plans, glued onto their own drawing, made copies and submitted to the City for approval. The developer is angry because the design is flawed and failing (imagine that). The guy overnighted the drawing to our office-low and behold-it was forged.

The perpetrator filled in areas of the signature that extended beyond the actual area of the seal and dated the document. The forged stamp also included an added exterior circle in order to disguise the area where the stamp was cut from another set of plans.

Has anyone else ever been through this experience? What kind of action did you take? We have notified the NM Board of P.E.'s and have found the contractor that provided the plans. They provided the name of a gentleman that supposedly works for our firm (we've never heard of the guy) who hand delivered the plans to their office.

The contractor's attorney contacted us today stating that she would advise her client to cooperate with us and answer our questions (such as the phone number & address of the guy that represented our firm and handed over the actual drawing to their office) ONLY if we agreed not to press criminal charges. Interpretation: Her client is guilty-he wanted to collect his contractor's fee and the fee paid for the services of a consulting engineer.

 

[JStephen]

I'd report it to the state board with all the information you have, and let them and their lawyers handle it. There's not a whole lot more you can do. The perps don't need to cooperate with you; it's not your job to seek out violators and bring them to justice.

You might want to contact the city involved or other people would would reasonably be expected to come across the fraudulent seals.

You might check if you have grounds for any kind of civil action against them (unlikely, I would think).

 

[JAE]

Yes, I agree....simply turn this over to the state board of engineers. I would NOT agree to not press charges, etc. This is a violation of a state law. Simply because it was your husband's seal has no bearing on it.

I don't think you would be in a position to press any charges anyway (I'm not an attorney so don't bank on that) but you can file a complaint to the board and most state boards do jump all over these things rather diligently.

 

[tuggertoo]

Because forgery, fraud and practicing engineering without a license are all violations of the law, the state board of engineers has instructed us to contact the police. My husband actually works for me. As President of a small electrical, civil and mechanical engineering firm, I have six p.e.'s on staff (23 employees total) wondering if this guy is using their stamps. The fraudulent drawing plainly reflects the name of our firm. I am also on the board of licensure for the state.

 

[JAE]

Go get 'em!

 

[Eleceng01]

As you go after them, I might get the media involved to show that this is going on - strictly a PR thing for your firm. It might keep your company's reputation in good standing if others understand that there is work out there that has your seal and isn't yours.

Good luck!

 

[TheTick]

If you file a complaint, the contractor won't have a choice about sharing the information.

You may want to start with the state PE board, but don't stop there. Fraud and forgery are criminal offenses no matter what. Go to the DA with this one.

 

[TheBlacksmith]

I would never not agree to "press charges" in return for their cooperation on what? Turn over all facts to the state board and cooperate fully with them to protect yourselves. This sort of fraud not only can damage your firm, but the whole concept of certifications and profession standards. Its almost like some addict stealing a doctor's script pad and signature to obtain drugs, except the public could be hurt be a bad design

 

[EddyC]

I think that there are both criminal and civil violations here. I also think that the contractor is part of this. I too think that you should get the State Engineering Board, Law Enforcement and Media involved. It may sound harsh, but the state should make an example of the person(s) who did this. Put them in jail for 10 years and lets see if anyone ever does this again. Please keep us informed of how this works out. I have a suspicion that we will all be hearing about it from various sources.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

I agree with FULL prosecution as far as possible...

One more thing - Encourage your local Public Works departments to accept ONLY wet seals with wet signatures - at least on the front page.

Here in the St. Louis area - they started this at least 20 years ago and that pretty much cut out this crap..

Yes - my seal has been "stolen"

 

[KENAT]

The above advice sounds good but...

I'd make sure and get your own lawyer involved, probably before you go to the police.

It's amazing how you can be in a situation where you're 100% sure you're in the right and the other party is breaking the law and it gets turned around by the police so that you are at least sharing the blame, if not made the main culprit. Trust me I've seen it.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[swertel]

Yes, mainly because most law enforcement don't have a clue as to what engineers do or what the seal means. They'll probably right something in their report implying the fact that you didn't control the document that had your original stamp on it therefore allowing a counterfit stamp to be made.

Had you stamped the drawing and then burned it so no one could ever copy it, that would have prevented the fraud. I'm sure the contractor can read ashes.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[swertel]

Oh. And call your local NSPE chapter. That would be the method I use to get in touch with a whole team of experienced lawyers as well as properly filtered PR through all of their channels.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[KENAT]

swertel, sadly it's not just limited to law enforcements interpretation of engineering;-)

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[swertel]

I know, but that opens up a whole new dicussion thread. And, I didn't want to throw this thread off-topic with a conversation on how misunderstood engineers are and what we should be doing about it.

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[JAE]

Well, not to rain on anyone's parade here, but I would maintain that an engineer is only obligated to notify the board of a mis-use and should not, and maybe cannot, file suit against someone who uses their seal in such a manner.

The license that we carry is a legal privilege that the state bestows on individuals who meet the criteria. We don't own the seal/license.

In this case, a mis-use of a seal is not some sort of violation of the engineer's rights or "property" but solely a violation of a state law and mis-use of a state privilege.

No tort is going on here as our original poster most likely can't show that there was injury....other than possibly some sort of harm to reputation. - and that is hard to prove.

What I guess I'm getting at is that if someone uses my seal, or someone else's seal wrongly, and I am made aware of it, I should just notify the board that someone has misused the STATE's license. It's not MY license in terms of property or ownership. It's the state's problem not mine.

The engineer has no standing to bring suits and probably doesn't need a lawyer unless the state is getting confused and starts going after you - thinking you were the one who mis-used the stamp - but that isn't the situation here.

 

[BJC]

JAE
Jsut because it's not our stamp does not negate the crime.
It's in your care and custody. Someone missusing it is commiting a crime. It's no different than if they stopped you on the street, held a gun on you and demanded your money.
TUGGERTOO
The local prosecuter may be to busy to handle the case but if it's fraud the board will generally see that it's prosecuted.
Once the board finds that he has broken the rules you can file a civil action and have a good chance of winning. After a criminal conviction your chances go up.
I would see a lawyer now. You may want to start a suit just to keep him hiding assets. Name the contractor as well.
Like I said the guys no differnt than a mugger. I'de hang him high. I would go for his house, car, dog and first born child. Ditto for the contractor.
"He who steals my purse steal trash, he who steals my good name steals all."

 

[KENAT]

While I think getting expert legal advice in this situation is probably a good idea full stop(period) specifically I think it's a good idea to get before going to the police, for the reason mentioned above.

swertel, I didnt' actually mean from the point of view that no one but engineers understands us/what we do. I actually meant that in many areas of the law/cases the victim/innocent party can end up being treated as a suspect. Been there, done that, plan on avoiding it again.

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[DRC1]

You may want to contact the building official in the city where thses plans were to be filed. It is possible that this was not the only incident.

 

[BJC]

"I think it's a good idea to get before going to the police, for the reason mentioned above."
No so.

It's a criminal act. The first step is allways a criminal complain filed with the police department or sheriff. whatever follows is up to the the DA or attorney general of the state.
If you go to any of the others the first question they usually ask is "Did you file a police report?"